What job changes do you want for Dawntrail

[Supersnow845]

Tanks aren't that far ahead of the healers.
If i was going to do the same dps as someone mashing a single button i'd feel invalidated though.
I think if that were ever to happen, i'd just quit tanking.

You act as if the healers want to press a single button

[GoatOfWar]

You act as if the healers want to press a single button

I used to be a healer main. We were agreeing on a lot of things early on in Endwalker, but things aren't changing so i quit healing.
My first level capped job was scholar in Shb, got bored, came back for sage and got bored again. Complained about the shallow gameplay, got gaslit into quiting and played tank instead.
The chances of me continuing to play tank aren't very high if they don't shake things up. This tier's bad balance killed my motivation to play.
There's literally no reason for me not to play Warrior because it's just an easier version of Dark knight that now does everything better.

I hope they take things away from the tanks and then create clear strengths and weaknesses for all of them.
Because all of this over homogenisation just means that i can play all of them and have no reason not to play the best.

[Lyth]

I'm sure that there are plenty of one-button Broil enjoyers out there. It's a relatively small step up in difficulty to simply swap to Caster for bigger carry potential, but if you do that then you run the risk of being compared to a part of the playerbase that is actually trying.

The biggest difference between the tank and healer communities is that the question 'Should we actually be doing damage?' is controversial in one and not the other.

[Supersnow845]

I think there is also a facet of it functionally being impossible to tank without doing damage these days

Like if PLD was designed where it’s only spammable GCD was flash and it had a wealth of oGCD mitigation skills like rampart in 5 colours then I think more people would argue if flash should or shouldn’t cause damage

[GoatOfWar]

I think there is also a facet of it functionally being impossible to tank without doing damage these days

Like if PLD was designed where it’s only spammable GCD was flash and it had a wealth of oGCD mitigation skills like rampart in 5 colours then I think more people would argue if flash should or shouldn’t cause damage

The simple truth of the matter is nobody is going to want to play a mindless damage sponge. There has to be a damage rotation. Get an AI to do that shit if you must, nobody is going to stand there all.. ''Oh yeah i will reduce this hit by 5% and then the next by 6.5% man this is fun''

[Supersnow845]

The simple truth of the matter is nobody is going to want to play a mindless damage sponge. There has to be a damage rotation. Get an AI to do that shit if you must, nobody is going to stand there all.. ''Oh yeah i will reduce this hit by 5% and then the next by 6.5% man this is fun''

I’m not saying that is a desirable design for tanks (though funny this is exactly how healers are designed)

I’m simply saying the whole “only one of the support roles has legit discussions about if they should do damage or not is partially build on the fact that healers are designed the way they are while tanks are designed as functionally simplified melee DPS

If tanks were designed like healers you’d get more people who’d be like “my job is to hold agro not do damage”

[GoatOfWar]

I’m not saying that is a desirable design for tanks (though funny this is exactly how healers are designed)

I’m simply saying the whole “only one of the support roles has legit discussions about if they should do damage or not is partially build on the fact that healers are designed the way they are while tanks are designed as functionally simplified melee DPS

If tanks were designed like healers you’d get more people who’d be like “my job is to hold agro not do damage”

People in the FF community refuse to embrace the healers for what they were designed to be doing from the ground up. Healers get all of these borderline useless ogcd heals that they don't need because of how little damage comes through, and it's becoming increasingly easy to just not heal with other roles receiving comically high levels of healing. Any time i spoke out about it, i got told how i wouldn't be able to deal with all the things going on or how i was just a dps player in sheep's clothing. And with Yoshi then making that dubious ''go play ultimate'' statement, well, i effectively got gatekept from enjoying the role so i moved on.

[Gemina]

I’m not saying that is a desirable design for tanks (though funny this is exactly how healers are designed)

I’m simply saying the whole “only one of the support roles has legit discussions about if they should do damage or not is partially build on the fact that healers are designed the way they are while tanks are designed as functionally simplified melee DPS

If tanks were designed like healers you’d get more people who’d be like “my job is to hold agro not do damage”

I'd argue that healers are designed to correct mistakes while contributing to damage when it is not necessary, so the role becomes less interactive and engaging when more skilled players are present. The ironic thing about this is that healers can become taxed and overwhelmed even in dungeons if players are bad enough, and snore through the game's more challenging content if players are good enough. It's an interesting juxtaposition that I am not sure how to course correct.

Tanks have a different problem in the sense that it is the least played role of the three due having the innate responsibility of keeping the enemy's attention focused on them. This makes giving them a simplified but effective offensive rotation necessary, especially when considering the necessity of the off tank. However, the moment you add complexity to maintaining boss aggression, the role immediately becomes less appealing to other players. That is their juxtaposition.

I don't have any suggestions on how to fix either of these problems. I only know that it has to suck trying to figure it out, and that the dev team has failed miserably in doing so. They face this challenge with every release of a new expansion, and the playerbase has to live with whatever they cook up for the duration of it.

[Supersnow845]

Again that’s what I’m saying tanks don’t have the “should I contribute to damage” discussion because they are literally built like simplified melee DPS with their DPS having massively amplified hate

Let’s for a second imagine a scenario where tanks were designed like modern healers PLD’s list of skills would be as follows (note tank stance no longer exists, damage dealt generates as much hate as DPS)

GCD’s

-fast blade- deals damage with a potency of 300
-fight or flight- increases damage by 20%
-goring blade- deals damage with a potency of 100 and applies a dot of 60 potency (duration 60 seconds)
-total eclipse- deals damage to all enemies with a potency of 200
-atonement- increases agro on a single enemy
-flash- increases agro on all enemies
-confitier- massively increases agro on all enemies

oGCD’s


-expacion- does damage with a potency of 500
-rampart
-rampart 2
-rampart 3
-Shelton
-holy Shelton
-bulwark
-sentinel
-sentinel 2
-hallowed ground
-reprisal
-arms length
-circle of scorn- increases hate on all enemies
-intervene- increases hate on a single enemy
-blade of faith- massively increase hate on all enemies

If tanks were designed like this you would get way more people pulling the “my job is to hold agro not do damage” like they currently do with healers. My entire point was simply that modern healer design facilitates people not wanting to do damage more than it does with tanks

[GoatOfWar]

I'd argue that healers are designed to correct mistakes while contributing to damage when it is not necessary, so the role becomes less interactive and engaging when more skilled players are present. The ironic thing about this is that healers can become taxed and overwhelmed even in dungeons if players are bad enough, and snore through the game's more challenging content if players are good enough. It's an interesting juxtaposition that I am not sure how to course correct.

Tanks have a different problem in the sense that it is the least played role of the three due having the innate responsibility of keeping the enemy's attention focused on them. This makes giving them a simplified but effective offensive rotation necessary, especially when considering the necessity of the off tank. However, the moment you add complexity to maintaining boss aggression, the role immediately becomes less appealing to other players. That is their juxtaposition.

I don't have any suggestions on how to fix either of these problems. I only know that it has to suck trying to figure it out, and that the dev team has failed miserably in doing so. They face this challenge with every release of a new expansion, and the playerbase has to live with whatever they cook up for the duration of it.

I think all jobs are simplistic in their damage rotation to be completely honest. There's some outliers like monk, but i can't say i'm having a hard time playing Sam or Smn. Sam and Smn have damage rotations that are about as easy as the average tank. I'd argue summoner is easier than Gnb and Drk.

Healers only getting 2 damage buttons when they're expected to primarily be dealing damage throughout a fight is a genuine problem though.