What if we just removed Tank invulns

[rawker]

Every time this comes up, I find myself wondering: How exactly would this particular "feature" make a Warrior desirable? Higher max HP but lower mitigation just means you end up schlurping up more healing because you're taking more damage, while not actually having much of a benefit. Even if Warrior HP was adjusted to be so much higher that it still came out at higher EHP than a more mitigation-focused tank, you're buying a bit more time until you need healing, but you also need more of it to return to max. And somehow I doubt "Hey healers actually have healing to do now!" will be taken quite positively if the others can do the same job, but require less healing, and thus leaving more time for green DPS to clear things faster/meet enrages/etc.

The effective HP of having old Defiance up was the same with Shield Oath/Grit. What made it even better than the two was when you factor in mitigation as it was a different source and it mitigated more. While PLD and DRK suffer from diminishing returns with Sacred Soil, WAR in Defiance had more effective HP.

[Absurdity]

The effective HP of having old Defiance up was the same with Shield Oath/Grit. What made it even better than the two was when you factor in mitigation as it was a different source and it mitigated more. While PLD and DRK suffer from diminishing returns with Sacred Soil, WAR in Defiance had more effective HP.

There was one negative to the 20% HP increase though. It only increased your max HP, not your current HP. So you needed to be healed up for it to provide any benefit, which is where the 20% increased healing came in handy.

[rawker]

There was one negative to the 20% HP increase though. It only increased your max HP, not your current HP. So you needed to be healed up for it to provide any benefit, which is where the 20% increased healing came in handy.

Can't remember if Thrill was used mid battle when switching from Deliverance to Defiance. Nevertheless, it was even better when SCH's Lustrate used to heal a % of max HP.

[Absurdity]

Can't remember if Thrill was used mid battle when switching from Deliverance to Defiance. Nevertheless, it was even better when SCH's Lustrate used to heal a % of max HP.

You could but Thrill just gave you another 20% more HP and healed for those 20%, it didn't heal the 20% you got from Defiance. It just did what it does now, minus the 20% increased healing on self passive that we got in ShB.

[Rithy255]

Every time this comes up, I find myself wondering: How exactly would this particular "feature" make a Warrior desirable? Higher max HP but lower mitigation just means you end up schlurping up more healing because you're taking more damage, while not actually having much of a benefit. Even if Warrior HP was adjusted to be so much higher that it still came out at higher EHP than a more mitigation-focused tank, you're buying a bit more time until you need healing, but you also need more of it to return to max. And somehow I doubt "Hey healers actually have healing to do now!" will be taken quite positively if the others can do the same job, but require less healing, and thus leaving more time for green DPS to clear things faster/meet enrages/etc.

hey healers actually have to heal the Warrior? can't have that at all apparently. I mean that's how every other tank should be balanced around too, healers having to actually heal them from time to time.

Even if warrior had a higher base HP with it's current design it has more then enough self healing tools for healers to not need to actively GCD heal the warrior, But I was under the assumption that with a higher base HP they would receive more healing along with that actually.

What I liked about Warrior the most In SHB is you had two short CD's one to actively sustain one to mitigate, now warrior can mitigate around the same level as every tank, has way more healing then any other tank and has one of the strongest raid wides, only really Paladin can compare to warrior which the job has a invul that's nearly twice as long.

I think tanks like warrior shouldn't just be strong at everything but also should feel unique, I want the Job to have a identity but warrior cannot just be a tank that does everything pretty much better then every other tank with no downsides, Hence why i'd like it if warrior had a big amount of HP and had self healing tools to compliment that, they can have mitigations but that could come at the cost of a healing CD ect.

[mallleable]

I think it's mostly that Holmgang should be nerfed, and maybe Hallowed Ground could have a minute shaved off its cooldown. Living Dead, and Superbolide seem fine.

[GoatOfWar]

No, I don't think thats a good idea. Historically when things are removed from the game, they're replaced with nothing. So you're just going to make tanks more dull.
And Invulns in my opinion make tanks more skillful, not easier. Clutch invulns to save runs feel good, using them proactively to save resources feels good.

If you want to make tanks harder, I think you should look at removing "Tank Mastery". Its the lv.1 passive that basically reads "tanks dont have to try in normal content". This used to be a thing you had to toggle on manually between a DPS stance and defense stance, but SE got mad at tanks only ever being in dps stance and forced it onto tanks permanently. Its giving tanks an inherent 20% damage mitigation at all times and a health boost, and its why you can basically get through a majority of content without pressing your mit buttons.

I'd like to go back to tank stance dancing as I thought it was inherently more engaging. But I can't see that happening.

Invulns in their current iteration are too spammy and convenient to call skillful.
I had to mitigate exactly 1 tank buster in both p10s and p11s. (excluding towers and HH) Though, part of that was that Warrior enabled the setups.

[Supersnow845]

holmgang 100% needs to be nerfed, you can ignore too many busters with holmgang especially considering all the other advantages of WAR, similarly hallowed ground really needs to be buffed, locking your HP bar when you use it just isn’t remotely as valuable as it used to be with how powerful oGCD healing on both the tanks and the healers

I don’t think necessity WAR trading less mitigation for more HP is a bad thing flavour wise, especially since WAR’s self healing would cover the difference (and you could add more thrill/protraction style skills to WAR as another means of compensation

[GoatOfWar]

holmgang 100% needs to be nerfed, you can ignore too many busters with holmgang especially considering all the other advantages of WAR, similarly hallowed ground really needs to be buffed, locking your HP bar when you use it just isn’t remotely as valuable as it used to be with how powerful oGCD healing on both the tanks and the healers

I don’t think necessity WAR trading less mitigation for more HP is a bad thing flavour wise, especially since WAR’s self healing would cover the difference (and you could add more thrill/protraction style skills to WAR as another means of compensation

To be completely honest, all tank invulns feel way too readily available for what the game throws at us. Not just Holmgang (Though it is comically overpowered)

[Oizen]

I'd rather them not try to design an entire tier around the existence of Holmgang cheese again. It didn't even really work, P6S P8SPII still had a holmgang cheese.

Living Dead can do the same in some fights, but it was never to the point of making 2 savage fights solo tankable on content like WAR in did in asphodelos.