What if we just removed Tank invulns

[GoatOfWar]

I would be fine with the removal of invulns and stronger emphasis on damage mitigation IF our mitigation tools were in any way interesting and/or varied.
Removing invulns and replacing them with just another "press button to take X% less damage for Y seconds" for every tank is not interesting.

Agreed, but i figured that would go without saying i guess.

[GoatOfWar]

Removing tank invuls would basically be just removing yet another thing that makes tanks slightly different.

I disagree, i think removing invulns would open up more design space. You could let 1 or 2 tanks keep theirs on a long cooldown and then the tanks would be more different from one another than they are now.
If we want the tanks to be different then we need to start introducing more shortcomings. The only tank with a shortcoming as of now is Dark knight, because it can't heal itself back up. Instead of just giving it stupid Endwalker level tank sustain in DT like the rest.. i'd much prefer they start poking holes at the defenses of other tanks to create an environment where different tanks do different things.

[Absurdity]

Agreed, but i figured that would go without saying i guess.

Considering the track record of this game it unfortunately doesn't.

[Rithy255]

I disagree, i think removing invulns would open up more design space. You could let 1 or 2 tanks keep theirs on a long cooldown and then the tanks would be more different from one another than they are now.
If we want the tanks to be different then we need to start introducing more shortcomings. The only tank with a shortcoming as of now is Dark knight, because it can't heal itself back up. Instead of just giving it stupid Endwalker level tank sustain in DT like the rest.. i'd much prefer they start poking holes at the defenses of other tanks to create an environment where different tanks do different things.

PLD also has a short coming in having the longest Invul. Theirs enough differences between invuls that they give flavour and are "unique enough" I can see your point we don't need invuls to have tank uniqueness but i feel like removing tank invuls with no changes would just make tanks even more samey.

I think if anything we need to Remove Rampart, reduce tanks general defensive value a bit (without mitigations), Make our 30%'s different and slightly buff up every tanks 3rd CD (DM, Bulwark, thrill, camo). Let tanks like Warrior have less mitigation but a higher health pool, it should also be more "selfish" and less about healing others, they should be able to survive stuff but aren't just absurdly good at everything, make them actually choose between sustain or having to survive with a mitigation tool on short cd, Dark Knight in general is actually really strong defensively the issue is so is every other tank that it's just not needed, I think if you gave DRK more barriers on their abilities in general it could pair well with high mitigation tanks, PLD should be a "support" high self defence tank, I wouldn't even mind if it had like slightly lower damage at the cost of its upsides (Remove self healing from magic attacks though) GNB should be a allrounder.

EW sustain isn't too bad, I think with warrior and some aspects of PLD they went way too far, warrior's sustain is absurd and it doesn't even suffer damage wise or defensively, PLD's sustain my only issue is magic attacks healing so much, I think if holy spirit while in divine might mode healed like 200 (same with circle), No more blade healing, it's healing would be fairly balanced, if healing was to be removed from Holy sheltron, I'd like it if clemency became a OGCD MP spender on healing that you can't spam too often or you'll lose burst damage.

Major issues with sustain I think is that Healers are also absurdly bloated with so much healing and the fact is fights don't require healing aspects a lot, So I think in general healing potency for tanks and healers can be adjusted to be lower, also just get rid of warriors AOE healing, I know it only effects dungeons but it's seriously ridiculous in the first place that a tank can just wall to wall without a healer, that being likely more optimal then bringing a healer in the first place.

[rawker]

Let tanks like Warrior have less mitigation but a higher health pool, it should also be more "selfish" and less about healing others, they should be able to survive stuff but aren't just absurdly good at everything, make them actually choose between sustain or having to survive with a mitigation tool on short cd, Dark Knight in general is actually really strong defensively the issue is so is every other tank that it's just not needed, I think if you gave DRK more barriers on their abilities in general it could pair well with high mitigation tanks, PLD should be a "support" high self defence tank, I wouldn't even mind if it had like slightly lower damage at the cost of its upsides (Remove self healing from magic attacks though) GNB should be a allrounder.

You meant HW WAR tanking in Deliverance and still ripping aggro from a PLD in Shield Oath, the entire time?

[Absurdity]

You meant HW WAR tanking in Deliverance and still ripping aggro from a PLD in Shield Oath, the entire time?

That still happened in Stormblood alliance raids, but it was due to a lot of Paladin's simply being bad. I vividly remember the 24/7 Shield Oath + Halone spam heroes who somehow still managed to lose aggro.
PLD in Heavensward was simply a mess, Royal Authority combo'd off of Savage Blade so even your dps combo included an enmity generating attack.

[Oizen]

No, I don't think thats a good idea. Historically when things are removed from the game, they're replaced with nothing. So you're just going to make tanks more dull.
And Invulns in my opinion make tanks more skillful, not easier. Clutch invulns to save runs feel good, using them proactively to save resources feels good.

If you want to make tanks harder, I think you should look at removing "Tank Mastery". Its the lv.1 passive that basically reads "tanks dont have to try in normal content". This used to be a thing you had to toggle on manually between a DPS stance and defense stance, but SE got mad at tanks only ever being in dps stance and forced it onto tanks permanently. Its giving tanks an inherent 20% damage mitigation at all times and a health boost, and its why you can basically get through a majority of content without pressing your mit buttons.

I'd like to go back to tank stance dancing as I thought it was inherently more engaging. But I can't see that happening.

[Absurdity]

No, I don't think thats a good idea. Historically when things are removed from the game, they're replaced with nothing. So you're just going to make tanks more dull.
And Invulns in my opinion make tanks more skillful, not easier. Clutch invulns to save runs feel good, using them proactively to save resources feels good.

If you want to make tanks harder, I think you should look at removing "Tank Mastery". Its the lv.1 passive that basically reads "tanks dont have to try in normal content". This used to be a thing you had to toggle on manually between a DPS stance and defense stance, but SE got mad at tanks only ever being in dps stance and forced it onto tanks permanently. Its giving tanks an inherent 20% damage mitigation at all times and a health boost, and its why you can basically get through a majority of content without pressing your mit buttons.

I'd like to go back to tank stance dancing as I thought it was inherently more engaging. But I can't see that happening.

I'm still convinced "Tank Mastery" is just a placebo passive (besides actively nerfing tank damage in Shadowbringers by altering their damage calculation). I have never noticed a difference in the damage I took between Stormblood and Shadowbringers without mitigation cooldowns.

If we actually had 20% passive mitigation at all times you would never need to pop a defensive cooldown in any dungeon up to level 71.

[Daliena]

Let tanks like Warrior have less mitigation but a higher health pool,

Every time this comes up, I find myself wondering: How exactly would this particular "feature" make a Warrior desirable? Higher max HP but lower mitigation just means you end up schlurping up more healing because you're taking more damage, while not actually having much of a benefit. Even if Warrior HP was adjusted to be so much higher that it still came out at higher EHP than a more mitigation-focused tank, you're buying a bit more time until you need healing, but you also need more of it to return to max. And somehow I doubt "Hey healers actually have healing to do now!" will be taken quite positively if the others can do the same job, but require less healing, and thus leaving more time for green DPS to clear things faster/meet enrages/etc.

[Absurdity]

Every time this comes up, I find myself wondering: How exactly would this particular "feature" make a Warrior desirable? Higher max HP but lower mitigation just means you end up schlurping up more healing because you're taking more damage, while not actually having much of a benefit. Even if Warrior HP was adjusted to be so much higher that it still came out at higher EHP than a more mitigation-focused tank, you're buying a bit more time until you need healing, but you also need more of it to return to max. And somehow I doubt "Hey healers actually have healing to do now!" will be taken quite positively if the others can do the same job, but require less healing, and thus leaving more time for green DPS to clear things faster/meet enrages/etc.

What they probably forgot to mention was the other part of Warrior's old tank stance, it not only had 20% more HP than other tanks but also received 20% more healing, in exchange for their tank stance not granting them 20% mitigation.
This gave it some nice synergy with Scholar since you could put much bigger Adlo shields on the Warrior (especially when combined with Convalescence) and then deploy it to the rest of the party.