Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

What movement do healer even need to handle now that all healers have been given the Trashologification (making all nuke cast time 1.5s) treatment?

Keeping up 'rotation'? Do we even have rotation? Okay, we do... which is basically the same from lv2 to lv90? (or lv26 to lv90 for SGE lol)

Simple healing kits that are easy to work around? Do we really have any other than your paper cut-thin variation of "push health bar to the right"-button? Is that not simple enough?

How far low can they really go from where we are right now? Do we need to eliminate the casting time and mana cost while giving every other job their own Recuperate stacks ala PvP come this Dawntrail for even more simplicity?

[Colt47]

Sage is NOT: A DPS-oriented barrier healer.

Sage IS: An OGCD healing oriented regen healer.

Sage's most used healing resources are Kerachole, Ixochole, and Physis II. What do they have in common? All three have nothing to do with DPSing other than enabling you to spam Dosis III more and nothing to do with barriers period. Meanwhile, Kardia, the thing that is supposed to be the heart of Sage's healing identity has no way to interact with it, no way to address different healing requirements, and almost no reasons to ever actually pass it around to other party members. There are certainly situations in which you can swap it to other party members, but the effect is too slow and too weak to have any meaningful applications in tighter healing requirements in which healing resource management actually can be an important choice to make. So the only times where passing Kardia around to heal actually can be used is situations in which there is no pressure on your other healing resources anyway. Sure you can use Kardia, but you could also use literally 20 other buttons for the same thing. In fact, using your Addersgall may very well be a better use of resources than Kardia anyway since you're more often than not drowning in Addersgall that you'd like to spend on actual healing to restore your MP rather than either wasting the healing when no one needs it for the MP or just foregoing the MP altogether.

And that doesn't even go into how little Sage relies on barrier application as a "barrier healer." Haima and Panhaima? Cool, but also niche and on long cooldowns. Holos? The barrier was added as an afterthought and is also a long cooldown resource. Eukrasian Diagnosis/Prognosis? You mean the two objectively worst healing actions you can possibly use other than vanilla Diagnosis/Prognosis or Pepsis: the skill that's utterly garbage specifically because it relies on having the barriers from the almost equally garbage GCD barrier heals that a good Sage never touches?

That is what it is when it is at the later levels but when it gets synced... oh boy. You can tell me what it is like healing at sub 40 with it when the tank is a new player in a mix of white gear. It just doesn't matter how much you got if that guy is running and doing double pulls, and just to double check because people apparently thought otherwise, I repeated this experience and it was verbatim identical. But this is supporting the point that they are adding too many skills instead of scaling skills. Someone at low levels still should have enough skills to make the job work like the job at end game because we are far past the point where someone stepping into the game has to learn a healer needs to target a person and cast cure.

[Supersnow845]

You can say that about WHM as well, at those levels it only has cure 1, AST only has benefic 1 if you burn the single charge of ED, SCH is alone that sub 30 you can genuinely get away with the eos doing all the healing

I’m not really sure what this adds to anything, no job is well designed at even level 50 let alone sub 30

[Maltothoris]

Going to be ever persistent and bringing this back to the front page. Don't care if people are sick of it or not.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Going to be ever persistent and bringing this back to the front page. Don't care if people are sick of it or not.

Commendable effort. Although I had a feeling it's going to be the 'moderator's bot' that's getting sick of it eventually. /j

[SargeTheSeagull]

I am genuinely eager to see what changes they have in store for jobs in DT. Call it morbid curiosity. My copium is: Most jobs (especially healers) are at their logical endpoint. There's almost nothing they couldn't give most jobs that they don't already have in some form. And EW was essentially finished by the time a lot of WoW refugees came and offered (much needed) feedback on 14's gameplay, feedback which the devs hadn't been able to act on due to time constraints. And by the time any of us really started complaining on the forums a large part of the dev team was wholly committed to reworking legacy dungeons and trusts. And they did add another body to the job design team. And due to not having to program anything like eureka/lost actions the job devs have had more time to really fix up jobs for 7.0.

The other side is that the dev team, and Yoshi P for that matter, have given effectively no indication at all that they think anything is wrong and are fine with people playing two weeks every five months for the story. Either way, job change LL and media tour should be in the next month or two so i'll have my popcorn ready regardless of what happens.

[Sani2341]

I am genuinely eager to see what changes they have in store for jobs in DT. Call it morbid curiosity. My copium is: Most jobs (especially healers) are at their logical endpoint. There's almost nothing they couldn't give most jobs that they don't already have in some form. And EW was essentially finished by the time a lot of WoW refugees came and offered (much needed) feedback on 14's gameplay, feedback which the devs hadn't been able to act on due to time constraints. And by the time any of us really started complaining on the forums a large part of the dev team was wholly committed to reworking legacy dungeons and trusts. And they did add another body to the job design team. And due to not having to program anything like eureka/lost actions the job devs have had more time to really fix up jobs for 7.0.

The other side is that the dev team, and Yoshi P for that matter, have given effectively no indication at all that they think anything is wrong and are fine with people playing two weeks every five months for the story. Either way, job change LL and media tour should be in the next month or two so i'll have my popcorn ready regardless of what happens.

Honestly if they were listening to any Feedback from healers, EW would not have released the healers in the state they are.

While the WoW refugees came later, healer complaints about ShB's gutting of the role came more or less immediatly, and the only things that has achieved in the last 4 or so years is getting SCH energy drain back, and having them adjust whm potencies after EW.

[Supersnow845]

Honestly if they were listening to any Feedback from healers, EW would not have released the healers in the state they are.

While the WoW refugees came later, healer complaints about ShB's gutting of the role came more or less immediatly, and the only things that has achieved in the last 4 or so years is getting SCH energy drain back, and having them adjust whm potencies after EW.

I can at least hope that it’s square’s snails pace development cycle that is causing this problem, the two changes we actually got (ED back and neutral lilys) were because the jobs were functionally non functioning without them

Think most of the complaints about the HW design of classes were “fixed” in ShB (it’s just the happy medium of square ping ponging between extremes in SB ended up being what everyone wanted)

The new healer didn’t revitalise the healer space. They are still the rarest role (btw why do we still not have healer achievements like we have tank achievements) they now have 2 whole expansions worth of feedback on them (such as the 5.3 official job satisfaction survey where they will all pretty much dead last). If they are ever going to backtrack on the current healer design DT is our best chance of it ever happening, if they stick with it for a third expansion then nothing short of the queues grinding to a halt because people outright refuse to play healer will fix the problem

[ty_taurus]

It's actually very bizarre, how feedback is addressed. Sometimes, feedback is addressed almost immediately, or is addressed in a following patch. We can look at the Paladin rework as an example, a situation where the changes to the job were expedited despite being brought up during EW, which is peculiar because Paladin wasn't doing that bad before the rework. There are jobs that have been in worse states competitively and yet didn't receive adjustments until the following expansion like SB White Mage, which was almost not played at all in SB Savage:

We also saw things like Scholar's Miasma II being removed from SB launch, then very quickly returned, Scholar's Energy Drain being removed from ShB launch, then very quickly returned, Machinist's Dismantle returned partway through EW, yet it took White Mage till 6.1 to have Misery adjusted even though concerns about Afflatus Misery's DPS loss were well established since 5.0. Ninja got a monumental rework in 5.1, but Monk could only receive a sterilization change in 5.4 before it could actually be reworked for 6.0. Sage's Addersting was introduced in an atrocious state and has yet to be addressed outside of the tiniest bandaid in the form of just starting with 3 stacks.

I'm just curious why certain things take literally years, while other changes sometimes happen overnight.

[SargeTheSeagull]

I'm just curious why certain things take literally years, while other changes sometimes happen overnight.

This is a total shot in the dark but I suspect it's something along these lines: The devs DO play the game, despite how much we meme that they don't. A lot of these issues (MCH's dismantle, Miasma II, ED) are things the devs would notice internally. It's possible that they notice these issues during development, and develop ripcords they can pull if feedback indicates they need to do something. Plus, these are abilities that are already in the games code and make large, obvious changes to how the jobs feel and their ability to clear content. The more numerical and in depth changes (6.3 PLD, 5.4 MNK, Misery etc.) require a lot of people pointing things out, expressing distaste for, or the devs internal data showing that adjustments are needed so they take longer to do. Game feel wise, there's no difference between misery before it was damage neutral and now so it's harder to notice stuff like that.