Feedback: It's dull when only the tank is still alive and they can't die

[Asako]

If the boss is 20-30%ish I'll usually work away depending on how fast it's going down, otherwise I'll keep at it, unless the team were dying to easy stuff then there is no point.

As for WAR out healing Healers in dungeon pulls not being fair on healers. You do realise that healers can do more damage than a lot of DPS in these same pulls. Should we remove all healer damage too and make everything just really grindy for no reason? As a healer you should be healing as little as possible in content. Tanks having self sustain is the best thing they've done for Tanks lately. Before this change Tanks were a rare commodity and now people love them and we have loads of them.

If anything Healers need the same treatment with emphasis on pure healing reduced and replaced with damaging moves so the community can finally see healers as an alternative job to play instead of being a heal bot. A lot of people don't find it fun being a heal bot in any RPG. People love seeing big numbers and feeling like they are contributing.

As it is Tanks are completely fine. Healers are just terrible to play if you are forced to heal.

[Supersnow845]

If the boss is 20-30%ish I'll usually work away depending on how fast it's going down, otherwise I'll keep at it, unless the team were dying to easy stuff then there is no point.

As for WAR out healing Healers in dungeon pulls not being fair on healers. You do realise that healers can do more damage than a lot of DPS in these same pulls. Should we remove all healer damage too and make everything just really grindy for no reason? As a healer you should be healing as little as possible in content. Tanks having self sustain is the best thing they've done for Tanks lately. Before this change Tanks were a rare commodity and now people love them and we have loads of them.

If anything Healers need the same treatment with emphasis on pure healing reduced and replaced with damaging moves so the community can finally see healers as an alternative job to play instead of being a heal bot. A lot of people don't find it fun being a heal bot in any RPG. People love seeing big numbers and feeling like they are contributing.

As it is Tanks are completely fine. Healers are just terrible to play if you are forced to heal.

I can do as much damage as DPS in AOE situations without the tank being immortal is the entire point, who wants to sit there going 333333333333 while the immortal tank heals themselves, I have enough heals as it is I can keep 100% uptime on damage on all tanks, but at least DRK and GNB let me actually press my healing buttons as well and occasionally press a GCD heal if something actually goes wrong

[Asako]

I can do as much damage as DPS in AOE situations without the tank being immortal is the entire point, who wants to sit there going 333333333333 while the immortal tank heals themselves, I have enough heals as it is I can keep 100% uptime on damage on all tanks, but at least DRK and GNB let me actually press my healing buttons as well and occasionally press a GCD heal if something actually goes wrong

You can press your healing GCD on any healer if something goes wrong regardless of Tank. It's only Warrior with the super healing, but it also has the weakest personal defence wise as it was back in ARR. You take more damage but you self heal more. PLD self healing is terrible too. Unless you are counting Clemency, which I hope you aren't. PLD should never ever have to press Clemency.

The Tanks are all fine. The healers just need a DPS rotation that is more than 1 Dot and 1 Attack and bosses just need to hit a lot harder. The game is too soft on players. It's not the Tanks fault that healers are in a bad state, and I certainly don't want to return to a time where we are always forced to wipe whenever the healer wets the bed.

[Supersnow845]

You can press your healing GCD on any healer if something goes wrong regardless of Tank. It's only Warrior with the super healing, but it also has the weakest personal defence wise as it was back in ARR. You take more damage but you self heal more. PLD self healing is terrible too. Unless you are counting Clemency, which I hope you aren't. PLD should never ever have to press Clemency.

The Tanks are all fine. The healers just need a DPS rotation that is more than 1 Dot and 1 Attack and bosses just need to hit a lot harder. The game is too soft on players. It's not the Tanks fault that healers are in a bad state, and I certainly don't want to return to a time where we are always forced to wipe whenever the healer wets the bed.

Did you ignore the fact that bloodwhetting is by far the strongest heal in the game and you are functionally immortal 30% of the entire fight, you cannot outdamage bloodwhetting, it’s fundamentally broken that is not healthy game design no matter how badly the healers are designed, “weakest defence”, yeah by 5% on a single CD, ooooooh ahhhhhhh much downside

As for PLD even ignoring clemency it’s the second strongest and it’s healing is also too strong

[Asako]

Did you ignore the fact that bloodwhetting is by far the strongest heal in the game and you are functionally immortal 30% of the entire fight, you cannot outdamage bloodwhetting, it’s fundamentally broken that is not healthy game design no matter how badly the healers are designed, “weakest defence”, yeah by 5% on a single CD, ooooooh ahhhhhhh much downside

As for PLD even ignoring clemency it’s the second strongest and it’s healing is also too strong

No I did not Ignore that. Like I said, it's there to compensate for the missing mitigation that the other tanks have compared to Warrior. It just so happens that the healing is more beneficial in aoe trash packs. Who really cares about trash? Against bosses I'd rather have straight up mitigation like the other Tanks.

Again, don't bring up Clemency. It is a skill that needs removed from the game because it's so bad. Is it strong? Sure. Should you ever press it? No. That's like saying Shield Bash is too strong. If it's not part of your normal rotation then it has no real value. It only comes up in situations were people have wet the bed at which point ask the question....Who wet the bed? They could give Clemency 1000000 potency and it still wouldn't change the fact that it's straight cheeks as long as it's tied to a GCD. If it were an OGCD I could see your point.

[Grizzlpaw]

The fact that you have to include an amendment there is the entire problem, there should never be a consideration where the tank is a better healer than the healer, WAR’s regularly outheal me in dungeons (and nobody is ever at risk of dying), that is just stupid, not a single healer can match the raw HPS of bloodwhetting on more than 3 targets, it’s straight up 4 benedictions on a 25 second CD, you cannot outdamage that

That’s the whole problem with bloodwhetting, sure if you tuned up the damage to 15 making it so the WAR crashed and burned after bloodwhetting you could probably force the healer to do something (and make 90% of the playerbase quit because of the increase in damage) but without a oneshot you physically cannot outdamage the healing potential of bloodwhetting; no skill should be like that

Damage should be tuned up so that tanks don’t need to have straight up zero self healing in order to make the healers do anything but bloodwhetting cannot be balanced around, it needs to be nerfed

While I agree, my biggest gripe with this conversation is the conflation of WAR sustain with tank sustain. Bloodwhetting trivializes dungeon content. Wall to wall pulls are one of the few things that can threaten a tank's health pool, and WAR gets to ignore that. This does not mean that tank sustain as a whole is a problem.

Resource/cooldown limited heals do have a place in this game. But it takes enemies so long to chip down a tank's health pool that sustain even in limited capacities feels overwhelming.

[Supersnow845]

No I did not Ignore that. Like I said, it's there to compensate for the missing mitigation that the other tanks have compared to Warrior. It just so happens that the healing is more beneficial in aoe trash packs. Who really cares about trash? Against bosses I'd rather have straight up mitigation like the other Tanks.

Again, don't bring up Clemency. It is a skill that needs removed from the game because it's so bad. Is it strong? Sure. Should you ever press it? No. That's like saying Shield Bash is too strong. If it's not part of your normal rotation then it has no real value. It only comes up in situations were people have wet the bed at which point ask the question....Who wet the bed? They could give Clemency 1000000 potency and it still wouldn't change the fact that it's straight cheeks as long as it's tied to a GCD. If it were an OGCD I could see your point.

WAR is missing 5% on one mitigation and in exchange gets the strongest AOE defensive, that is not a remote justification for bloodwhetting

I said ignoring clemency, not sure how you didn’t see that, PLD’s sustain is too strong

While I agree, my biggest gripe with this conversation is the conflation of WAR sustain with tank sustain. Bloodwhetting trivializes dungeon content. Wall to wall pulls are one of the few things that can threaten a tank's health pool, and WAR gets to ignore that. This does not mean that tank sustain as a whole is a problem.

Resource/cooldown limited heals do have a place in this game. But it takes enemies so long to chip down a tank's health pool that sustain even in limited capacities feels overwhelming.

Correct which is why TBN is well designed, “I’m immortal for 30% of the fight” , “I’m a better regen healer than the regen healers” and “I do SCH’s excog but better” are not

[Asako]

Please clear up what content you are referring to when making your arguements please. I would love to know this magical content that PLD sustain is too strong and WAR is OP despite in any content that requires more than 1 braincell the ideal comp is DRK / GNB because they have the best mit. All Tanks are perfectly balanced for this content. Like I said, it's not their fault healers currently suck.

If you are going to argue about casual content then what's the point? Bill and Ben the Flowerpot men can clear this content on most roles with no issue. You can practically solo dungeons on healer. Should we nerf healers? They shouldn't be able to out dps DPS right? They do though, epsecially at the lower levels.

War is currently one of the least preferred Tanks to do serious content with because the healing doesn't matter. It's a large amount but it's still irrelevent. It barely beats out PLD, and that's simply due to the invun times.

[Ath192]

War is currently one of the least preferred Tanks to do serious content with because the healing doesn't matter. It's a large amount but it's still irrelevent. It barely beats out PLD, and that's simply due to the invun times.

A quick trip to a particular website that ranks things would tell you WAR is the most popular tank to run the latest ultimate with even among the top 50 teams worldwide currently. War isn't OP per se, its easy, and that makes it infinitely more valuable in a raid setting because as long as dmg is on parity to other tanks it frees you up to handle mechanics better instead of focusing on gauges and cooldowns. Just pointing out WAR being least preferred is inaccurate.

[Supersnow845]

Please clear up what content you are referring to when making your arguements please. I would love to know this magical content that PLD sustain is too strong and WAR is OP despite in any content that requires more than 1 braincell the ideal comp is DRK / GNB because they have the best mit. All Tanks are perfectly balanced for this content. Like I said, it's not their fault healers currently suck.

If you are going to argue about casual content then what's the point? Bill and Ben the Flowerpot men can clear this content on most roles with no issue. You can practically solo dungeons on healer. Should we nerf healers? They shouldn't be able to out dps DPS right? They do though, epsecially at the lower levels.

War is currently one of the least preferred Tanks to do serious content with because the healing doesn't matter. It's a large amount but it's still irrelevent. It barely beats out PLD, and that's simply due to the invun times.

Different content has different problems associated with it

Casual content bloodwhetting is too strong on the healing side, sure casual content is easy but using “oh it’s easy so just do whatever we want with skills” is a flawed premise, it’s still the majority of content we do and it should be balanced to reward all roles properly, otherwise “just give the DPS a one tap the boss button” is just as valid a statement as “bloodwhetting is fine because it’s casual”, for example changing bloodwhetting to only proc once per GCD rather than once per target rebalances the skill and changes nothing about how it’s used in high end content. PLD’s sustain is just the fact that it basically can have a near infinite regen on it and it’s magical combo heals as well, an average PLD in most content outside high end will outheal the healer

High end content WAR is better balanced because the healing on bloodwhetting is way less consequential (though in exchange it has the best invuln, the best party wide mitigation and second highest damage), tank problems in high end content are more content focused than ability focused but still centre on the fact that tanks have too much mitigation for the damage going out, the 86 tank CD’s are just too powerful so the only real way to balance them is to just make tankbusters do 280% of your HP unmitigated, this is less of a WAR problem and more of a collective design problem but it still generally comes from never nerfing the tanks, there is also the fact that DRK had no advantage in high end content, PLD has its one extra mitigation, GNB and WAR do the most damage and WAR has the best mitigation, they are much better balanced in high end content