Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Sebazy]

Kindly prove this claim by showing any form of discontent back in HW/SB that's louder than what we have now. The only loud discontent I remember from that era was that PLD was really quite bad in HW.

I was going to say the same thing.

3.0 AST and 4.0 SCH were both basically broken dead shells of a job on those expansion drops. They both had horrible issues and gaping holes in their kit across a wide variety of content yet in both cases I can't remember things being anything like as bad as they are now.

[Deceptus]

I was going to say the same thing.

3.0 AST and 4.0 SCH were both basically broken dead shells of a job on those expansion drops. They both had horrible issues and gaping holes in their kit across a wide variety of content yet in both cases I can't remember things being anything like as bad as they are now.

While current SCH is mechanically boring at least it has it's mana regen abilities back that the job designers stupidly took away in Stormblood and the energy drain nerfs in Shadowbringer.

It can't be overstated just how bad 5.0 was for SCH, outside of the DPS ability purge:

Aetherflow (their main mana regen outside of Lucid) moved from lvl 6 to lvl 45
Energy Drain, which supplemented mana regen, had it's mana regen removed
Quickened Aetherflow removed from the game.

So you had a job that lost all of it's tactical identity weaving dps and heals combined with terrible MP management and a clunky fairy that didn't work right.

[Supersnow845]

I still have no idea why they removed quickened aetherflow, that was both somehow the least offensive and also the best feeling ability in SCH’s kit and they lost it for absolutely zero return

[ty_taurus]

I still have no idea why they removed quickened aetherflow, that was both somehow the least offensive and also the best feeling ability in SCH’s kit and they lost it for absolutely zero return

Because in SE land, there is no such thing as gameplay rewards, only gameplay punishments for doing something "wrong." The Shadowbringers/Endwalker mentality is remove as many ways to fail from the job as possible (except for Black Mage).

[Aravell]

Because in SE land, there is no such thing as gameplay rewards, only gameplay punishments for doing something "wrong." The Shadowbringers/Endwalker mentality is remove as many ways to fail from the job as possible (except for Black Mage).

Honestly, we talk about how BLM is Yoshi P's favourite, but BLM did get neutered in some ways too. Enochian management used to be way harder, Thundercloud and Firestarter procs being extended also made movement easier, and they also buffed standard rotation to the point where alternative lines aren't that big of a gain anymore.

[OgruMogru]

Honestly, we talk about how BLM is Yoshi P's favourite, but BLM did get neutered in some ways too. Enochian management used to be way harder, Thundercloud and Firestarter procs being extended also made movement easier, and they also buffed standard rotation to the point where alternative lines aren't that big of a gain anymore.

Enochian refreshes giving diminishing returns upon each B4 refresh, aggro management, apocatastasis required fight knowledge and targeting specific party members, old manafont [convert] would take a portion of health so it could potentially line up with a raidwide and kill you, manashift again rewarded fight knowledge and paying attention to who needed resources when you were going into UI, manaward and manawall were separate abilities and even tho the one that blocked 2 phys attacks was largely useless i remember it having some niche defensive uses - hell, even raging strikes was another cooldown to keep track of. BLM is still in a really good spot but we've also lost a LOT of really interesting stuff.

Edit: we could also cast lethargy which caused slow and heavy and was part of dealing with og Living Liquid, additionally Blizzard 2 also caused a heavy or a slow at some point. We also had Break but little to use it on.

[CelestiCer]

Maybe it's a cultural thing with Japanese Game development...

Looking at some Nintendo titles... Advance Wars: Reboot could have offered way more depth, extra Units, Online PvP rank system, but they didn't. Megaman Zero games were quite more Brutal if you choose to master its combo's and the hardmode vs the infantilized renditions of it later. Fzero fans have been waiting for 20+ years for a new up to date graphical Fzero game that had the same complexity as FzeroGX, only to get Fzero99 where you don't have as much of it at all just to name a few examples. FFXIV seems no different.

" Go play Ultimate " is not a solution for players who crave a slither of Job depth. Sitting hours in PF, finding Statics & Raiding Discords, learning & reviewing Strats, wiping for hours at the same prog points - is not gameplay complexity that everyone desires... Sometimes? players love doing things right that are not necessary in a casual setting. Gameplay not hours of waiting away? but around the corner, be it a monster they have to hit in a Fate or a Dungeon taking 5 min to queue up for. A feels good to do that tiny bit extra that no one asked off them to do... not even the game i.e...

" Optional Depth " from Jobs that can be optionally applied to nearly all PvE combat activities. Feels like this is slowly being erased, making casual content where the mechanics are already laughably dull extra braindead.

Square obviously won't increase difficulty of mechanics in Casual content and it doesn't seem they have meaning MSQ/Dungeons/Normal Trials/Raids/Alliance Raids all of which are a cakewalk. Square has not shown to give any Job Depth in return after they culled Job Skills away or even after some are Reworked.

Some players also give feedback of changes they desire that would drop both the skill-floor and skill-ceiling:
- Removing Combo buttons
- Removal of Positionals
- Gauge management simplified further
- Compression of Job Skill kits
They might all look like Quality of Life changes and making room for something better in the future? but again... After Square has removed anything from Jobs, they have not shown to replace it with more Job Depth ever

Lets not forget combat changes in Endwalker
Dungeon mobs have been increased in Size so some Jobs got AoE rotation simplified. Boss hitboxes got increased as well, some taking up half the space of the arena. Bosses seemingly teleport to the center of the Arena more often, pulling Bosses as a Tank made easier. The reach of Heals and Buffs have been increased, so you don't have to think as much about where you position when you cast them.

Not to say all these changes weren't welcome or bad? it's just that you can translate what has been happening to XIV as " XIV has been simplified & simplified & simplified & simplified &... " and you can't quite tell where they will stop, except fight engagement at Ultimate. No one is going to be against keeping the Skill-Floor below the Earth's-Crust, but to constantly drop the Skill-Ceiling of Jobs? takes away the satisfaction of mastering a Job you love or encouraging players to do anything remotely better on any Job.

Are you in Casual Content? Faceroll your Keyboard. Don't like that? Go play Ultimate - there seems to be no clear middle-ground for Midcore players. But money talks... Majority of players are Casual, and not just in XIV. It's best to cater to your biggest demography. Even if Square could easily create a side-dish to cater to Midcore players like Job Depth that is completely optional... Sadly, why would they? They have a better solution for that already then improving gameplay which is -> Just go play Ultimate

[mallleable]

Potentially really whacky idea, but what if they removed auto regen?

[ForsakenRoe]

Potentially really whacky idea, but what if they removed auto regen?

The 1% of max HP (or however much it is) per 3s that you naturally regenerate while in combat? Wouldn't change a thing, I'd expect

[BRVV]

The 1% of max HP (or however much it is) per 3s that you naturally regenerate while in combat? Wouldn't change a thing, I'd expect

Maybe a regen has to be pressed once more in an Ultimate or smth