Okay they weren't lying about the relic

[Kaedys]

We have a tome weapon, we do not need a second one.

We don't really, though. The only weapons purchasable with tomes are upgrades off of crafted items, which are always solidly behind on itemlevel and a patch behind, or normal-mode raid weapons, the latter are which are primarily gated by raid drops, not tomes. You can earn more than the tome cost of 6 normal-mode raid weapons in the 7 weeks it takes to farm the drops for a single raid weapon from the once-per-week drop from normal mode raids. Yes, the completed token also drops from savage, but if you're running savage, that weapon's just a pitstop until you're clearing the 4th fight in that tier anyway. This is from the perspective of a sub-savage player, where the gating on that weapon is the 7 weekly drops required, not the tomes.

Relic weapons are the "catch up weapons" for more casual players, and requiring utterly insane grinds like some of the ShB relic steps is not particularly conducive to that role. With tomes, I can at least choose the type of content I want to get them from, which is particularly important if I'm trying to farm a number of them. I remember running into someone on my first ShB relic, several months before EW dropped, when I was farming HW fates for it. We grouped up until I got my 20 Memories for that zone, and as I was getting ready to head out, they indicated that they had approximately 40 of the 200 Memories that they were farming, thrice, for a bunch of relics.

Sorry, but the idea of farming 600 fates with half my kit gone because we're synced to 50-60 is actually torturous. And that was just one step. I'll take the relic grind over that nonsense without a second thought.

[Mikey_R]

We don't really, though. The only weapons purchasable with tomes are upgrades off of crafted items, which are always solidly behind on itemlevel and a patch behind, or normal-mode raid weapons, the latter are which are primarily gated by raid drops, not tomes.

To point out, again, the tome weapon will be upgradable outside of savage at some point before 7.0, though only to i660, which is inline with every other expansion.

On the case of relic weapons, they have NEVER been classed as catch up weapons. The grind for them was too much for them to be classed as catch up weapons, until the current weapons that is. The catch up weapons would have been the older tome weapons, in this case, spending 500 tomes of causality and clearing P8 4 times for a weapon, which you can then use to clear p12, this is assuming you don't want to use crafted weapons.

The only reason they feel like catch up weapons now is because they are so easy to get. The only reason you don't see the tome weapons as a reasonable option is because the relic weapons are so easy to get. You just have to wait a bit before the step gets released compared to the savage weapons. However, why should the tome weapon be an inferior option to the relic? Why is it that the last step of the relic has made that weapon all but redundant. The tome weapon was there for those who didn't want to do savage and who didn't want to spend the time doing a relic weapon, but now, that is gone.

And, to talk about the ShB fate grind, you could have done the grind in Bozja and progressed in there, which you needed to do anyway, so it was more efficient, at least for your first weapon. You also aren't going to shock me in people doing multiple relics as I am also someone who does multiple relics and does, infact have complete collections of all ARR, HW, ShB and soon EW with a fair amount of progress made on the SB weapons. I am a glutton for a good grind and the relics provided me with that grind. It was always something I could work on between patches. Whilst people were out there crying they had nothing to do, I was making progress on my relic weapons. Which leads onto another point. The whole, there is nothing to do. Yes, that is because they took out one of the biggest sources of people's time, grinding out a relic. Again, this isn't something you needed to necessarily hardcore grind out, but you could make progress at a steady pace and easily get the weapon before the next patch.

The weapon just doesn't do what it is meant to do.

[Kaedys]

On the case of relic weapons, they have NEVER been classed as catch up weapons. The grind for them was too much for them to be classed as catch up weapons, until the current weapons that is. The catch up weapons would have been the older tome weapons, in this case, spending 500 tomes of causality and clearing P8 4 times for a weapon, which you can then use to clear p12, this is assuming you don't want to use crafted weapons.

This is clearly from the perspective of a savage raider. Do you really expect players that are scared of extreme fights to tackle P8S, even a full tier later? And all of that for a weapon that's 5 itemlevels behind the un-upgraded crafted weapon? Referring to the prior tier's 4th raid weapon as a "catch up" is actually laughable.

The relic weapon is a "catch up weapon" not from ease of access, but because it can and always could be gotten without having to tackle any form of difficult content. It was always the most powerful weapon a character could get without ever having to set foot in any extreme or savage content. It's what WoW players call a "welfare epic", ie. an item of similar power level to raid drops that is given out to basically anyone that wants it without requiring completion of difficult content, just delayed by many months, either in preparation for the next raid tier or next expansion.

The only thing about that that has changed is the magnitude of the grind associated with it. I mean, let's be honest here: clearing 60 different fates from 2 expansions prior just for a single step of a single relic is neither engaging content nor even remotely an "achievement", except perhaps of mindless persistence, and that's an order of magnitude more if you're farming multiple of these relics. And I think that's the piece lost in all of this. It took me several months of relatively casual grinding to get my ShB relic done, and that was for a single relic, and the mere thought of doing another has made it so that I've gotten through exactly one step of my next ShB relic in all of EW. And that's annoying, because I swap jobs a lot, so being forced to do that entire grind on each job, or just entirely forswear those frankly quite good glams (Augmented Law's Order weapons are, imo, quite amazing), is a rather terrible place to be.

Perhaps instead they can make the grind for it in the current expansion more significant, though still for tomes. Say, 5-10k tomes per stepinstead. You can get ~750-850 tomes per day if you clear all of your roulettes, but you'll only get about 400-600 per week if you just do the roulettes to cap the gated tomestone, plus maybe clear the normal raid floor and the a-raid, so 10k is ~2 weeks if you focus grind it and ~15-25 weeks if you do it passively. And then they can drop the cost by like 80% or so once the next expansion (or raid tier, even) is released.

[Mikey_R]

This is clearly from the perspective of a savage raider.

Not done a savage raid since the start of ShB. Doesn't mean I'm not capable, I just don't have the necessary time to effectively do it (I work a shift pattern) and i don't feel like trying to do it through PF.

Do you really expect players that are scared of extreme fights to tackle P8S, even a full tier later?

Where did I say they had to? I mentioned P8N so that you can get the tome weapon from the uncapped tomes, but I never mentioned P8S as a 'catch up' weapon.

And all of that for a weapon that's 5 itemlevels behind the un-upgraded crafted weapon? Referring to the prior tier's 4th raid weapon as a "catch up" is actually laughable.

But that is what a catch up weapon is. It is designed as a weapon that is easy to get so that, if someone stops playing for a while and needs better gear, they have a quick way to get one. That has historically been the tome weapon. Once the current tier has been out for a while, the tome weapon, for the current tier, becomes easier to get, making it another easy catch up weapon for someone to get.

The relic weapon is a "catch up weapon" not from ease of access, but because it can and always could be gotten without having to tackle any form of difficult content.

So does the tome weapon.

It was always the most powerful weapon a character could get without ever having to set foot in any extreme or savage content.

Which is true, it, however, traded people's skill in clearing said content for time invested.

It's what WoW players call a "welfare epic", ie. an item of similar power level to raid drops that is given out to basically anyone that wants it without requiring completion of difficult content, just delayed by many months, either in preparation for the next raid tier or next expansion.

Weirdly enough, this isn't WoW and, whilst I have no experience with the items there, there is no reason why both have to follow the same model, however, the tome weapon is what fits that definition.

The only thing about that that has changed is the magnitude of the grind associated with it.

Which is the issue here.

It took me several months of relatively casual grinding to get my ShB relic done,

And that is how it is meant to be tackled. Something you can work on around other things.

And that's annoying, because I swap jobs a lot, so being forced to do that entire grind on each job, or just entirely forswear those frankly quite good glams (Augmented Law's Order weapons are, imo, quite amazing), is a rather terrible place to be.

Only if you want those weapons to glam. Tell yourself, are you really going to use it? You don't seem like the person who cares about the content, just the glam at the end.

Perhaps instead they can make the grind for it in the current expansion more significant, though still for tomes. Say, 5-10k tomes per stepinstead.

Whilst that is a better option, I am of the opinion that you shouldn't be able to get a head start in the quest, just because you happen to have tomes in your inventory, or at least, only give a minimal increase. If you want tomes, you need to have something else to grind out on the side to step away from the mindless tome grind. Think the umbrite/crystal sands step for the ANima weapon.

And then they can drop the cost by like 80% or so once the next expansion (or raid tier, even) is released.

They always make steps easier when they aren't relevant anymore, so this is par for the course. However, the current relics are so easy to get, they haven't nerfed a single stage of it. Tells you something when that happens.

[Jargal]

This is clearly from the perspective of a savage raider. Do you really expect players that are scared of extreme fights to tackle P8S, even a full tier later? And all of that for a weapon that's 5 itemlevels behind the un-upgraded crafted weapon? Referring to the prior tier's 4th raid weapon as a "catch up" is actually laughable.

The relic weapon is a "catch up weapon" not from ease of access, but because it can and always could be gotten without having to tackle any form of difficult content. It was always the most powerful weapon a character could get without ever having to set foot in any extreme or savage content. It's what WoW players call a "welfare epic", ie. an item of similar power level to raid drops that is given out to basically anyone that wants it without requiring completion of difficult content, just delayed by many months, either in preparation for the next raid tier or next expansion.

Correction, the Relic Weapon is NOT by any means, a catch up weapon, a catch up weapon/gear are items that have the easiest and fastest form of access to, so that players that are fairly new to the game and are behind/trying to catch up to the current endgame minimum ILs, can equip their fresh recently level cap job to the IL that can allow them to access and progress any content and every main content of the game (i.e. MSQ), once the player finished the MSQ, there's no more catching up to do, they are on endgame. A weapon that needs any sort of grind/hours put into getting it to finish the story its NOT a catch up item.

The Relic is although an alternative to players that don't want to engage in midcore/hardcore contents (extremes and savages) to get the best possible status after the respective work (be it tomestone grind or something else) they can achieve by other means, they should be achievements, just as much as clears and savage BIS are for players that put time and effort into clearing the hardest contents in the game.

You can still clear everything else in the game with a tome weapon, or a crafted one with the upgrade, and whenever the patches allow people to acquire upgrades in other forms (hunts and alliance raids) you can get that tome weapon upgraded, which then, serves as the catchup weapon for the players late into endgame (and to be able to do extremes and savages you can prog/clear these using crafted sets, so idk what is your point).

Edit: The only thing required by the game from the player that wants to engage in hardcore contents, is the min. IL, which is easily reached with a crafted set in the case of extremes and savage. For ultimates, well, they still need to clear the tier of the ultimate they want to do, thus acquiring gear sets and items to prepare for the ultimate in question, at this point in time, most BiS pieces to tackle an ultimate are from dungeons anyways, this last step of the relic isnt even the optimal weapon anymore because of the way the status distribuition is made.

So my question to you is: If you believe a relic is a catch up weapon, what endgame content does the game have that the player can't access unless they have a relic in hand? If the answer is "none" its because there's simply no catching up the relic offers (and if you say savage/ultimate then you are objectively wrong, since they are not required to enter/clear said content).

[Ath192]

Correction, the Relic Weapon is NOT by any means, a catch up weapon, a catch up weapon/gear are items that have the easiest and fastest form of access to, so that players that are fairly new to the game and are behind/trying to catch up to the current endgame minimum ILs, can equip their fresh recently level cap job to the IL that can allow them to access and progress any content and every main content of the game (i.e. MSQ), once the player finished the MSQ, there's no more catching up to do, they are on endgame. A weapon that needs any sort of grind/hours put into getting it to finish the story its NOT a catch up item.

The Relic is although an alternative to players that don't want to engage in midcore/hardcore contents (extremes and savages) to get the best possible status after the respective work (be it tomestone grind or something else) they can achieve by other means, its an achievement as much as a clear and BIS are for players that put time and effort into clearing the hardest contents in the game.

You can still clear everything else in the game with a tome weapon, or a crafted one with the upgrade, and whenever the patches allow people to acquire upgrades in other forms (hunts and alliance raids) you can get that tome weapon upgraded, which then, serves as the catchup weapon for the players late into endgame, to be able to do extremes and savages (you can easily prog these using crafted sets, so idk what is your point).

Relic weapon is now a total catch up weapon for those that didn't do savage at the end of the expansion. I don't even know why this is controversial. Oh hey? You didn't raid? Excited about the expansion? here is how you can catch up to all the folk going in with BIS without having to learn all the savage fights.

[Jargal]

Relic weapon is now a total catch up weapon for those that didn't do savage at the end of the expansion. I don't even know why this is controversial. Oh hey? You didn't raid? Excited about the expansion? here is how you can catch up to all the folk going in with BIS without having to learn all the savage fights.

Its not a catch up because its not required to do anything in the game, you don't need BIS to clear msq dungeons and trials, or to progress in the main parts of the game, period. Thats not what the definition of "catching up" means. The relic isn't even necessary to start the next expansion, you can just dump poetics on the augmented tomeweapon after the new expansion drops. What is your point? BIS in FFXIV is more of a achievement and rights to brag and nothing more. You do more damage in the msq content, sure, but its not required to access/clear them.

Imagine telling a player: "hey go do the entirety of Hildibrand's quest lines, its trials and farm 6000 tomestones to get the BiS weapon of the expansion" a couple of weeks prior to the next expansion, as opposed to: "save up to 600 poetics to buy a weapon 5 ILs lower than the final step of the relic at the new expansion launch" and have the audacity to claim that the former is a "catch up" form. Are you serious?

catch up
phrasal verb of catch
1.
succeed in reaching a person who is ahead of one.
"he stopped and waited for Lily to catch up"

There's no one ahead of anyone by having BIS, you are not getting any more access to things by having savage BIS. Everyone has access to the same things, relic/savage wpn in hand or not.

[Saraide]

snip

Why is "being required to access content" a necessary quality to call something a catch up weapon? I think you just made that up to argue semantics. Someone with BiS is ahead in ilvl over someone who isnt, the last step of the relic lets them catch up to that ilvl without doing savage.

[Boblawblah]

Relic weapon is now a total catch up weapon for those that didn't do savage at the end of the expansion. I don't even know why this is controversial. Oh hey? You didn't raid? Excited about the expansion? here is how you can catch up to all the folk going in with BIS without having to learn all the savage fights.

I don't even know if that's true, but it sounds AWESOME.