What lore do you ignore?

[Vyrerus]

It's pretty common in every FFXIV storyline for the story to lean towards the whole, "Great Man Theory." It's always revolving around world leaders, heroes, and international/worldwide stakes. 1.0 has us deal with Louisoix who was a member of the Sharlayan forum, in addition to the city state leaders of Eorzea. 2.0 was the city state leaders again, along with an organization that places its right to do stuff above that of nations. 3.0 Ishgard's pope, and the leaders of its knight regiments. 4.0 Lord Hien, Ala Mhigan resistance leaders, Emperor Varis. 5.0 Crystal Exarch, Vauthry, Emperor Solus. 6.0 Satrap Vrtra, The entire Sharlayan Forum, Three members of the Convocation of 14 in Ancient times, an Ex-Convocation member, and an ex-Convocation Select.

It's part and parcel of this game's story to highlight exceptional people and put them in our path/by putting them in our path. Venat is no exception. It is completely in line with how XIV's world has always operated. Oh look, she can perceive Fate! She's so much better than everyone in her entire society that not only did she get to lead it, she got to ignore their customs completely with no repercussions or downsides (because ultimately the Ascians' society was a peaceful one that didn't eat people for their faults, but that's not how Venat's eschewal of their customs is framed).

It's less a story about individualism, and more a story about "The Greats." At every turn the bigotry of low expectations runs rampant with our protagonists (they do not believe in the common man). This was once mildly called out from ARR into HW for Alphinaud's character growth through the Lens of his Crystal Braves Debacle. But never really again since, and it still didn't highlight individuals that were less than nation leaders.

Even our own Ancient backstory for the WoL as Azem placed him as one of the Convocation of 14. We were only ever a person who pulled themselves up by their own merits once in this story, and that was apparently between the events of ARR's start and 3.0's Azys Lla segment (discounting the now literal super saiyan aura Hydaelyn gives us in Praetorium). Since then we have been considered the greatest great of the modern age.

In this way, the story of Endwalker and The Sundering and Venat is just a tale of the Greatest Woman Who Ever Lived, Hallowed be Her name. She altered the entire planet in an irrevocable way creating more moral conundrums than an Imperial Dreadnaught has cannons. Paving the way for someone to finally be greater than her, that someone being the WoL. However, we still have to be reminded at every turn that Venat's legacy is still great and responsible for ours.

It's kind of like Watchmen, but there's no one watching the Watchmen in this setting. Well, other than the audience, and the audience is largely sold on this setting's Ozymandias (Venat).

[Dikatis]

It's pretty common in every FFXIV storyline for the story to lean towards the whole, "Great Man Theory."

So you're complaining about named characters in positions of authority doing things of importance because of narrative conventions? Because that's what you're doing.

[Vyrerus]

So you're complaining about named characters in positions of authority doing things of importance because of narrative conventions? Because that's what you're doing.

So you're missing my point and making some sort of assertion against a strawman? Because that's what you're doing.

[Dikatis]

So you're missing my point and making some sort of assertion against a strawman? Because that's what you're doing.

I'm not. You complain about the common man not having enough to do and the story centering around a handful of characters because... yeah. That's how storytelling works. This isn't an in-depth political drama game. It's an action-adventure story. We're not going to examine socioeconomic factors in excruciating details because that's not the focus of the game and there needs to be characters capable of pushing the story forward lest we wind up in a board room wringing hands over every little action. So yeah, we're going to have heroes and leaders and people capable of enacting great change on their own. Because again, that's how high fantasy storytelling works.

So the idea that the named characters and leaders are competent, effective, and powerful is such a weird thing to complain about. And your narrative about "[the Scions] not believing in the common man" doesn't work when there's a lot of detail put into detailing the importance of the common man. Matsya saves the lines of dozens of refugees from Palaka's Stand and Vanaspati by reminding people of their faith and giving them succor in times of crisis. We need the people of Doman and even the sleepy village Namai to have a successful uprising against Yotsuyu. The support of people less important than city-state leaders is paramount to the plot. The alchemists of the Great Work develop the warding scales to enable common soldiers who are not blessed with the Echo and the Blessing of Light to fight primals and resist corruptive influences. The knights of Ishgard hold the other dragons at bay at the Final Steps of Faith while the Warrior of Light faces Nidhogg. The Eorzean Alliance fights the Garlean army while we take the fight to Zenos. The scientists of Labyrinthos are responsible for constructing a vessel capable of taking us to the end of creation to stop the Endsinger.

In your quest to villify the Scions as much as possible, you wind up making a milquetoast argument about characters actually being able to move the plot forward.

[Vyrerus]

I'm not.

You are. My point, which you missed wholeheartedly in your attempted, "Gotcha!" Is that we are not of common stock from places of little importance rising to be and do great things. We didn't come from nothing. Same as the Scions (well, not all of them, but the generalization stands).

In your condescending prattle about storytelling (I know how it works, thank you very much), you are forgetting stories quite commonly feature people who rise out of common households and circumstances. In fact, up until a few years ago, the WoL was kind of supposed to embody that.

Think about Lord of The Rings, considered by many to be the grandfather of most high fantasy. The Hobbits are literal nobodies, but they save the world under their own power in spite of their faults and foibles. Like sure, Bilbo and Frodo were both selected by Gandalf, who is actually a divine being, but it turns out he's like 3rd rung angel, more or less. Then all of the heroes in the setting that are tied to some form of royalty still need armies at their backs, full of the common men, in order to succeed and aid those Hobbits, those literal nobodies.

Your point about Matsya is good. That's actually one of my most favorite parts in Endwalker, but you've left out that he himself could not get that chance were it not for being saved by the Twins and then by Estinien and Vrtra.

Your point centered around the Alchemists of The Great Work? Not so much. Those are all the best alchemists in Thavnair, and they report directly to Vrtra. And the key ingredient in their innovation? Vrtra's scales, without which all of their alchemy alone is not enough.

In your next cavalcade of examples, only Lucia leading the knights on the Final Steps of Faith comes close to how you think this story plays out, and that's an echo of a time when the game's story was closer to what you describe.

The Eorzean Alliance in Ala Mhigo starts as a charge with every leader there in person to fight. None of them get wounded, and we see no uncommon valor or performance from regular soldiers. We get some help pushing in on the throne room, but other leaders and soldiers were trying to fight their way there too. But none of them even get to the colossi guarding the throne room doors (save Lord Hien's group which is visible through the main walkway barricade), and all the while we dealt with things they did not. The Magitek Scorpion and Aulus mal Asina.

The scientists in Labyrinthos are Forum sanctioned geniuses that are in no way common who get to directly commune with Hydaelyn.

You've misunderstood me. I'm not trying to vilify the Scions. I actually like most of them, even if I'm tired of their screen presence. I'm just trying to dispel the notion that this story is about individualism at its core, because it really isn't.

[Dikatis]

You are. My point, which you missed wholeheartedly in your attempted, "Gotcha!" Is that we are not of common stock from places of little importance rising to be and do great things. We didn't come from nothing. Same as the Scions (well, not all of them, but the generalization stands).

In your condescending prattle about storytelling (I know how it works, thank you very much), you are forgetting stories quite commonly feature people who rise out of common households and circumstances. In fact, up until a few years ago, the WoL was kind of supposed to embody that.


Think about Lord of The Rings, considered by many to be the grandfather of most high fantasy. The Hobbits are literal nobodies, but they save the world under their own power in spite of their faults and foibles. Like sure, Bilbo and Frodo were both selected by Gandalf, who is actually a divine being, but it turns out he's like 3rd rung angel, more or less. Then all of the heroes in the setting that are tied to some form of royalty still need armies at their backs, full of the common men, in order to succeed and aid those Hobbits, those literal nobodies.

Having the scrappy underdogs from humble beginnings fight their way through a situation that they should have no business being in is a method of storytelling and one that can craft a compelling narrative. But I don't think FFXIV espouses "the great man theory" either.

The Great Man Theory is the idea that "exceptional individuals' innate qualities and talents that make them born leaders. It emphasizes individual agency and willpower as the primary causes of historical change, while downplaying the role of contextual factors."

There isn't a lot of evidence that any of the central characters is really the type of "Great Man" ala Napoleon or Julius Caesar that this framework of history espouses. Alphinaud believes himself to be this until the Crystal Braves incident sends his ego crashing down. Even then, he's only effective by befriending others and utilizing their talents to make up for his shortcomings. Nanamo wants to be a just, capable queen, but her blind, somewhat sheltered idealism leads to self-destructive actions that she's forced to confront when she's nearly assassinated and only saved by the manipulations of the man she considered her worst enemy. Lyse is labeled the leader of the Ala Mhigan Resistance for her abilities as a fighter and as a figurehead, but actively admits that she's in over her head when it comes to actual leadership and lacks an innate genius that would let her make effective decisions without consulting more experienced and able people like Raubahn.

The Crystal Exarch would not have made it to the First without the efforts of generations of people before him, including common people like the Namazu of Yanxia. Even as a near philosopher king, he questions himself and prefers to consult the people he governs rather than make so-called genius plays. Some of his plans are outright hare-brained and overly self-sacrificing, as Alisaie, Y'shtola, and Krile rake him over the coals for being so willing to throw himself on the pyre when other options can be reached. Even leaders like Hien and Aymeric who are incredibly effective suffer consequences from their short-sighted decisions, like Hien humoring Gosetsu and thus denying his people closure or Aymeric's rush to separate church and state making the clergy pariahs in their homeland. None of these people are the sort of invincible geniuses that would really justify you labeling FFXIV as a supporter of the Great Man Theory.

Even WoL and the Scions only enact great change with the help of others. Even in Shadowbringers, where they upend an entire world order, is done with the aid of the people whose support they've won through their actions and could not have accomplished otherwise. If the Great Man Theory specifies that these people did great things regardless of contextual factors, then FFXIV argue that these great things could not happen without those contextual factors.

Your point about Matsya is good. That's actually one of my most favorite parts in Endwalker, but you've left out that he himself could not get that chance were it not for being saved by the Twins and then by Estinien and Vrtra.

Your point centered around the Alchemists of The Great Work? Not so much. Those are all the best alchemists in Thavnair, and they report directly to Vrtra. And the key ingredient in their innovation? Vrtra's scales, without which all of their alchemy alone is not enough.

In your next cavalcade of examples, only Lucia leading the knights on the Final Steps of Faith comes close to how you think this story plays out, and that's an echo of a time when the game's story was closer to what you describe.

The Eorzean Alliance in Ala Mhigo starts as a charge with every leader there in person to fight. None of them get wounded, and we see no uncommon valor or performance from regular soldiers. We get some help pushing in on the throne room, but other leaders and soldiers were trying to fight their way there too. But none of them even get to the colossi guarding the throne room doors (save Lord Hien's group which is visible through the main walkway barricade), and all the while we dealt with things they did not. The Magitek Scorpion and Aulus mal Asina.

The scientists in Labyrinthos are Forum sanctioned geniuses that are in no way common who get to directly commune with Hydaelyn.

The problem with this is that listing every single soldier of valor would drag down the pacing of the story. Introducing characters just for a throwaway mention doesn't work in an interactive medium when compared to a novel. We do see leaders get injured (see Raubahn getting his arm cut off, Aymeric being stabbed, Alisaie getting slashed by Fordola, and so on. And we do see soldiers of uncommon valor in sidequests. For example, there's an entire questline in The Peaks focusing on a Garlean conscript named Baut who fought tirelessly to improve conditions for those in the occupied Ala Ghiri, to the point that he won the hearts of everyone in the city. When the Eorzean Alliance comes marching in, he tries to smear his own name out of fear that the people would get themselves hurt protecting him should the Eorzean try to prosecute him for being in the Garlean army. His fears are unfounded, but his kindness and willingness to fight his fellow conscripts and his Garlean officers are true.

You've misunderstood me. I'm not trying to vilify the Scions. I actually like most of them, even if I'm tired of their screen presence. I'm just trying to dispel the notion that this story is about individualism at its core, because it really isn't.

[/QUOTE]
And you're right. I entered this conversation with a swaggering, condescending attitude because I've generally grown tired of so many threads saying "Scions bad, Garleans and Ascians good" and the mental gymnastic some posters will use to justify their opinions. I apologize for that.

Still, I disagree with your notion that FFXIV is somehow supportive of the Great Man Theory when the heroes repeatedly succeed because of others rather than in spite of others.

[Vyrerus]

The Great Man Theory is the idea that "exceptional individuals' innate qualities and talents that make them born leaders. It emphasizes individual agency and willpower as the primary causes of historical change, while downplaying the role of contextual factors."

FFXIV does like to give its protagonists some humility, but this doesn't change the fact that they are shown by all accounts to be beyond all others in the setting, with those in leadership positions being much the same way (with, I believe, the exception of Nanamo particularly in the realm of physicality).

When you glance over The Great Man theory, you see the likes of historical juggernauts like Caesar or Genghis Khan. Obviously these men didn't single handedly conquer things. They had armies and many many mundane considerations to overcome, along with tons of idiosyncrasies in their personalities and vices and failings.

But the theory isn't positing that Great Men are perfect or without those things. It's positing that they have anomalies in their physiology that set them apart from their peers, allowing them to rise to those positions in the first place. And that most of these anomalies are with regards to individual intelligence and capability.

It then postulates that the Great Men still have to rely on society to be sympathetic to the way they think, you know, in order to want to follow them.

More or less, it's a very long winded way to say that Great Men are the, "idea guys" for society, and they create new paths for society to progress.

In our real world it's not just rulers who are the Great Men. It's inventors. It's philosophers. It's scientists. It's rulers. It's storytellers. And that's where the theory itself differs from the theory as a historical framing device.

But in FFXIV there is a lot of overlap with who the Great Men are. It's bundled up tightly with leadership. I'm basically saying that in XIV, we rarely come across common folk who are exceptional. It's always leadership. Mostly they're born into it. Their pedigree accounts for everything. Something something, it's a Rey Palpatine sort of situation. (with the exceptions/characters further from this being my favored characters, more often than not)

The WoL themselves fell to this, and I view it as a failing of the story. Our Ancient pedigree explains everything about our power, and we now use the Azem Stone without hesitation everywhere we go. Supposedly there's a Dynamis factor in it for us on top of that, but we've yet to consciously use Dynamis as the mainstay in a conflict explicitly. Yet, because of the way the story is now framed due to The Sundering being intentional, this also still ties our ability to be affected by/use Dynamis to our pedigree as a Sundered individual, so it's still inherited.

*ahem*

How that all ties into my "complaint" about us always dealing with leaders of nations and such, is that XIV is tacitly endorsing the theory because we have yet to see a commoner burgeon upwards and be stronger than a leader or even become a leader. The WoL used to be an example, but has not been for quite a while now, narratively (and won't ever be a leader of a place anyway). Like the closest thing we've got to that is like... The admiralty/pirate confederation of Limsa Lominsa, the Syndicate in Ul'dah, and Lyse (but of course, Lyse gave way to making a democratic republic and trying to put Raubahn in charge, which Raubahn actually still fits the bill as self made, from dirt, but he's also been sidelined heavily and is just a General now).

I don't know exactly how to articulate myself beyond this. Suffice it to say, where are the adventurers and fighters that rival the WoL? (this is what made things like Bozja so gripping for me) Where are the other Raubahns?


------

Drawing back to the common man's role in Great Man Theory. Like I glossed over in the above, the Great Man Theory doesn't posit that the Great Men succeed alone. In fact, many of its proponents always argue that the Great Men still require the populace to want to follow them and their ideas.

The populace in FFXIV does want to follow us, as well as all of the leaders we've helped, and the leaders we've put back in power.

We do not yet have a storyline where we go to help people, and the people say to us, "No, you're wrong. We don't want to follow you at all. We won't even consider what you say. Your way is not what's best."
We had a tease of it with the Sharlayan Forum in Endwalker actually, but this is another of my disappointments with this story. The reticent of The Forum fell away under some of its own member's wanting to aid us. In the end, we got almost every culture from Eorzea to Hingashi to help us fuel the Aetherburner with the Forum's full blessing.

Anyway, this is all a bit long in the tooth now. I hope you understand me better in this post.