Can we have an honest conversation about the Scions? Dawn Trail

[Turtledeluxe]

That doesn't make any sense. You said, "People will hate new characters by default because they are NOT the Scions we've grown to love for 10 years"

small edit: Actually I said this:

"This is another one of those things where players say they want something but they don't imo. Zero is the perfect evidence. "Zero is just an x,y, z archetype blah blah blah". Given the time span of any Scion (this means IF WE KNEW THEM FOR A FEW HOURS) you could say the same thing about them. XIV's vocal fans tend to have knee jerk reactions to everything (liike YOU do with Zero) which makes new things and/or creative things really hard to implement unless they are otherwise familiar/extremely safe (like a Fall Guys collab). Eureka and Bozja became trendy later in their life cycles because as Yoshi P himself noticed, the initial reactions were "ugh". XIV's vocal fans are like cranky old cats that need extremely delicate consideration when introducing new things."

And you haven't disproven this. All you are proving is that when characters take breaks, it's ok. That isn't relevant at all. You've argued that people could easily become Scions based on a Minfilia ghost and a side quest character. Who you should be mentioning are people who were pretty much new and joined-- the closest qualifiers being Estinien and Graha. Male, attractive, sassy, part of MSQ for a whole expansion and a half before joining. What a coincidence. And I'm being extremely generous with the timing because with Estinien it's much longer technically.

Maybe if Zero actually had the time and space, she'd hit the same status as them, instead of having an MSQ tier story stuffed into 3 hours of storytelling. We just don't know. Also Zero has taken a "BREAK" so shouldn't we be waiting to see more of her before really assessing since that what we did with Ryne according to you? Or does that not work bc you don't like Zero lmao.

[OdinelStarrei]

And you haven't disproven this. All you are proving is that when characters take breaks, it's ok. That isn't relevant at all. You've argued that people could easily become Scions based on a Minfilia ghost and a side quest character. Who you should be mentioning are people who were pretty much new and joined-- the closest qualifiers being Estinien and Graha. Male, attractive, sassy, part of MSQ for a whole expansion and a half before joining. What a coincidence. And I'm being extremely generous with the timing because with Estinien it's much longer technically.

Maybe if Zero actually had the time and space, she'd hit the same status as them, instead of having an MSQ tier story stuffed into 3 hours of storytelling. We just don't know.

I don't know why you are saying that I want them to be Scions in particular. I'm not specifically harping on that point of uplifting the organization itself, I don't care about the organization itself, I care about new characters who are interesting. If I had a desire for "only scions can be allowed to hang out with me" why would I want characters who are decidedly not that, and why would I complement characters who could fill similar roles without necessarily being or even aware of Scions? Main Character does not equal a Scion, and a Scion can be a Minor character. Krile has as one of the latter, becoming a main, and Lyse as one of the former becoming a minor. That is fine. If anything, I dislike G'raha way more now that he is one, and to contrast, I grew on Vrtra, a non-scion, the more time I spent with him post-expansion, even if I found him pretty one-note in the patch quests. Maybe it's different because he's First Brood? I am generally ambivalent to the Scions, because I see them as one part of a larger cast, and I feel I have seen enough of them. I never even said it was easy to make compelling characters, I said continuing to use the SAME characters can be a bit limiting if they're being pigeon-holed, and I don't see what their physical characteristics have to do with that opinion. If you're even looking for a organization bias for my perspective, it'd probably be what's left of the original Students of Baldesion minus G'raha, the Ironworks, or the Crystalline Mean characters who I hold a fondness for.

Zero wasn't given the time and the space she needed, this I can agree with. There are a lot of things that could have been done, weren't and now we're talking about the reality of the aftermath of her inclusion in the scope, of which, I don't think she was given nearly enough material or substance, hence the filler comment, I imagine. Ironically, despite being MSQ, there just wasn't a lot of substance to her quest for me, and the changes it made to current storylines might be clouding my judgement for any alternatives, because all I think is "Why did you do it like this?" The "void" expansion I feel would've been a way better idea. It's not Zero who I dislike, it's how she was used. If MSQ is so important to people, over the side-content the plotline this arc originated from, there should have been more time dedicated to making a more seamless transition over having a lot of FFIV referential content.

Is what you're talking about
Situation A: If you are in the Warrior of Light's party, you are a scion, whether official or honorary.
or
Situation B: The Scions themselves are an organization that operates separately from the WoL that share considerable, but not complete overlap.

I don't think main characters need to ascribe themselves as a Scion or be on the path to become one. I'd be fine it's just a ship passing in the night situation, we team up for this plotline, and go our separate ways afterwards like it is for a lot of other characters, maybe with a cameo here or there.

Like, I'm trying really hard here to explain my perspective in good faith. I'm not saying throw Y'shtola away, Zero is awful, this entire post MSQ is a complete failure, make all my favorite characters Scions and have a rotating roster for the rest of the game's life, I just want the New World expansion to have primarily New World characters with New World problems.

EDIT: No, there's a distinct difference between Ryne/Zero inclusions and that's screentime and I suppose, intent. Ryne has the backing of previous plot threads, and expands on them within the expansion she is introduced. She pretty much pays off at the Ahm Araeng revisit, and again in dedicated Eden raid series (which I also think maybe should have been referenced in this plotline due to E2, but that's a different conversation.) Zero is not introduced until post MSQ, in an enviroment we are already pretty familiar with due to World Of Darkness and testimonies from the other void characters, that the only thing Zero really brings to the table is history of the 13th, which is something that could have come from the two of our already established characters for that setting, and the current status of the 13th, of which I thought was the most interesting thing she brought to the table. You could say "You're being too hard on a unfinished character" and to that I'll respond "Why was her arc not given a satisfying conclusion then?" Saying "Yeah, we can bring back the world we lost" with Golbez is fine, but it doesn't mesh with the already established void storyline, because those characters simply don't interact, a missed opportunity. Bringing it back to Ryne, when you finish Eden, Shadowkeeper, the MSQ, and Warring Triad, all of those associated characters are now woven together. Zero is NOTICEABLY absent. And that brings in what I feel is a narrative dissonance, because I believe her character would be greatly strengthened by interactions and conversations with that segment of the cast. Ryne stuff took old parts, made something new out of it in a new setting. Zero's plotline is almost usurping a developing plotline in an old setting, and coopting it, not her fault, but that's what happened. That's a distinct difference. No one gets side-lined in Ryne's personal story in the over-arching world cohesion of FFXIV, Zero's actively does so old ground can be retread.

[Turtledeluxe]

snip

As far as I am aware, this thread is asking about the Scions. It mentions new characters but new characters would, I assume mean full time party members who are equivalent to Scions even if they are not called Scions. As such, characters like Ryne and even Jullus and anyone like them are not relevant. They're fantastic characters but they aren't held to the same screen time or scrutiny as a very very main character would. Ryne is like seeing a Scion at their best angle constantly rather than every angle, even meandering moments of lifestyle, as we get with a main character.

Main characters are also the face of the game. They're the ones who sell the main trailers. Ryne, Jullus and Co don't do that. Designing a character who will fit into that mould is challenging and risky not just for the narrative but also for literally selling the game. That's why they play it safe and give you the same shit over and over.

Also just a general thought regarding the OP but it isn't so much the Scions are boring as much as it is the team does not indulge them with any interesting arcs anymore. It's all just sass, sexual tension, twin politics, or graha telling you for the 57th time to take him on your next adventure. The one exception being the Garlemald segment of 6.0 which was quite satisfying for the Twins.