What lore do you ignore?

[ZavosEsperian]

No. We know that a divergent timeline did not occur.

see

These are entirely at the discretion of the writing team, should they ever elaborate further.

You have contradicted yourself again, which renders everything stated in between those two points in your argument moot. Due to how the writers are allowing people to take either approach in terms of timelines, it causes there to be a Schrödinger's cat-like paradox, where both states are able to be accepted as true from the outside observer's perspective. You cannot declaratively state one is true over the other without going against the writers’ intent at the moment. I am not inherently dismissive of converging timeline interpretations, the problem is that without clear clarification of the paradoxes that have to exist for a converging timeline to be true, it is extremely difficult to accept this interpretation in its current state. Divergence allows for the events to all play out as they have in the way they have been depicted without the need to deal with these paradoxes as they would not exist. That being said, I do not want to give myself carpal tunnel discussing something where the writers have clearly indicated it is up to your own interpretation, thus I will agree to disagree with your overall position.

Venat elaborates further: 'As for Hermes... I think it unlikely he will create more entelechies.

This statement does nothing to enhance your previous argument and arguably makes it worse. The quote used is based on Venat's opinion and, on top of that, uses language that is not entirely dismissive of the possibility of Hermes creating more entelechies as the term 'unlikely' is not 'never'. In addition, you have failed to refute any of the points in my former post in regards to negating your argument, thus I find the continuance of your argument with the points you are currently making otherwise to be strictly headcanon/personal opinion, as none of these things are directly stated inside of the story or any other source material. Do understand, this is not me arguing Hermes will ever end up doing what is deemed unlikely above, it is refuting the complete dismissal of that possibility as something that can still be viable.

More exactly (and speculatively), if the timeline split in some way due to the information we gave Venat at Elpis, we are not part of that timeline and have no way to detect it, just like we have no direct evidence of G'raha's original timeline even though it must now be playing out parallel to ours. So for functional purposes, even if an alternate timeline did exist, it does not exist in any way that we need to consider it.

From the perspective of the WoL, this is an accurate interpretation. Any viewpoint related to how the WoL interprets events will seem to them as being convergent, as there is no way for them to have an omniscient view where they can see how time streams twist and turn and potentially branch and parallel each other. In the case of G'Raha (Crystal Exarch) in particular, he did not cease to exist upon averting the 8th Umbral Calamity, which suggests his actions did not remove/overwrite the conditions required for him to exist, which is proof his original time stream is still intact and running parallel to our own, where our own time stream is diverged from his original time stream.

We can confirm that we are living in the same timeline that we visited in Elpis even before we go there because the after-effects of what happened there can be seen in the present day. Argos trusts us because he already met us; Hydaelyn is already aware that we are approaching the "confluence" where the time loop will be completed.

This reads like Yoshi-P's interpretation, which he has described as his own opinion/interpretation. This above statement can exist in all time stream types, and much like I argued above, due to how the writers intended to leave this open to interpretation, it creates a Schrödinger's cat-like paradox where both interpretations of how time travel works and how time streams work both exist at the same time, which causes a whole assortment of issues when discussing anything related to the time travel portions of EW. As I have indicated to Lyth above, I don't feel like developing carpal tunnel over this so I will agree to disagree with any approach that is dismissive of either of the two time stream types.

[Iscah]

In the case of G'Raha (Crystal Exarch) in particular, he did not cease to exist upon averting the 8th Umbral Calamity, which suggests his actions did not remove/overwrite the conditions required for him to exist, which is proof his original time stream is still intact and running parallel to our own, where our own time stream is diverged from his original time stream.

I know that, but that would be indirect proof – we can logically reason that because G'raha still exists, the timeline he came from is likely to still exist.

I specifically wrote "direct proof" to mean confirmable evidence that the timeline exists: some way to look across the high-degree dimensional split and actually observe the existence of the other timeline. To our knowledge we have no device that could do so and assure G'raha that his friends' reality continues.

On a pedantic sidenote, "G'raha" (as for all Seeker names) doesn't have a capital on the start of the given name when the tribe letter is used. I assume it might be a limitation of forcing player names to start with a capital and then lower case for the rest.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I know that, but that would be indirect proof – we can logically reason that because G'raha still exists, the timeline he came from is likely to still exist.

I specifically wrote "direct proof" to mean confirmable evidence that the timeline exists: some way to look across the high-degree dimensional split and actually observe the existence of the other timeline. To our knowledge we have no device that could do so and assure G'raha that his friends' reality continues.

On a pedantic sidenote, "G'raha" (as for all Seeker names) doesn't have a capital on the start of the given name when the tribe letter is used. I assume it might be a limitation of forcing player names to start with a capital and then lower case for the rest.

But we're talking about allowing millions of people to be murdered and an entire civilization to be destroyed on the grounds we only have circumstantial proof that divergent timelines are possible. To me, that level of selfishness is not the trait of a hero. G'raha risked it with no proof at all. We have proof and we're just standing there taking quests from these people knowing they are all about to die and doing nothing to help them.

And as ZavosEsperian has pointed out, attempting to lock us into a loop where nothing can possibly be done causes a paradox because if we always went back in time and caused the Sundering which causes our creation which leads to us going back in time, how/why did the first Sundering happen? And if nothing can be done or changed, why are we actively, and shamefully not helping? We look down in sadness and shame like we know we're doing wrong every time these people ask us about their future and we condemn them to their deaths with our inaction. It seems to me that is a choice. If nothing can be done to change their fate, then we should be able to shout from the rafters what's coming their way and our actions simply won't change things.

Earlier I explained there are two kinds of "can't be helped." Situations where there is no action that could be taken at the time to change things, like most of the deaths that happen in the story. And situations where things could be changed, but doing so goes against your self-interest, so you do nothing no matter how much pain and suffering it will cause someone else. What we're doing in Elpis is the latter "can't be changed." We are purposely condemning a people for the (possible) benefit of our own which was something the game was against when Emet-Selch, the Warriors of Darkness and Golbez attempted to do it. And the only argument I've seen that makes us the exemption is we're the sacred timeline with the only "chance of survival" while all other timelines are "dead ends" which means it's only wrong to sacrifice us because our lives are simply worth more due to some terrifying Darwinist ideal.

[Iscah]

Seeing as this has turned into the debate space for the Sundering again, I have to note that the EE3 page on alphabets (page 52) and renewed discussion of it in light of the "hypothetical" proto-alphabet popping up in Dawntrail, if it is accurate that both worlds' writing systems came from a common ancestor then that seems to be a strong point in favour of the Sundering not wiping out all knowledge even if precise memories were lost, and thus leans more towards "same people with weakened aether" over "reverted to primordial slime".

Edit to add: This seems to fit in conjunction with other elements leaning that way within FFXIV's actual canon, like Emet demonstrating the concept of sundering with an illusion of two identical Rynes, and that he makes no effort to horrify us with tales of people being physically reduced to something inhuman, and seems to imply that the worst of the effects was a loss of memory but not so much that they couldn't still draw an accurate and sequential history of the conflict.

[ManaEthielday]

Not my own lore that I ignore, but one that my husband does.

He refuses to think that the gunblade came before the gun.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Seeing as this has turned into the debate space for the Sundering again, I have to note that the EE3 page on alphabets (page 52) and renewed discussion of it in light of the "hypothetical" proto-alphabet popping up in Dawntrail, if it is accurate that both worlds' writing systems came from a common ancestor then that seems to be a strong point in favour of the Sundering not wiping out all knowledge even if precise memories were lost, and thus leans more towards "same people with weakened aether" over "reverted to primordial slime".

If they wish me to understand the Sundering as a nerf and not annihilation, then this shouldn't exist: https://youtu.be/YC0U_aTv0EI?si=RtpFmgcB6u09PZwi&t=244

What Emet-Selch saw was malformed creatures incapable of speech when he comes from a species that can understand any language due to knowing the intent of your soul. Their intelligence was reduced 13/14ths. A person with an IQ of 100 would have an IQ of 7. A chimp has an IQ of 20-25. What they were reduced to was something he could no longer recognize as a person.

ETA: Based on my understanding of the Sundering, the Ascians would have found 14 copies of their world. Which meant that the cities and books would all still be there. And beings that looked like the people they knew would also be there. But those beings wouldn't have the comprehension necessary to maintain the cities and would die of old age before the Ascians could even come up with a plan. "They die and die and die." So I wouldn't be surprised if the different writing systems all evolved from a single source as the books would just be sitting there...but without anyone knowing what a book was or how to read...

The more I think of it, the more horrified I am. And in this case, my horror isn't for the people she did this to, but for those she left to witness it. To labor for thousands of years, going crazy, as they attempted to restore their people. And she put them in this position knowing they'd never succeed...

ETA2: And now that this has started me thinking about it even more. Do you know what we call a world created by a god to make their inhabitants suffer? We call that hell. Sure in this case their hell is on par with our normal world, but it still holds true. We view heavens as worlds with no or less suffering and hells as worlds with more suffering. Which means not only did she set them up to go crazy watching their people die off and be replaced. They are now being recycled to endure the hell of her design over and over. A fate she got to opt out of.

But hey, she didn't destroy the books. Sure the people were too devolved to use the books for anything but toilet paper for a millennia, but she didn't destroy them...

[JepMZ]

Well yeah. Of course, the tempered thrall of Zodiark would think everyone else is less than a person and a husk. He's evil. The video is in his tempered scrambled brain's viewpoint. And he's being a hypocrite because his own people were also having a civil war and his own member council wanted the death of everybody for nothing before he got amnesia, so he shouldnt view himself as better than the generations to come, but you shouldn't expect that because he's tempered

[Lady_Silvermoon]

Well yeah. Of course, the tempered thrall of Zodiark would think everyone else is less than a person and a husk. He's evil. The video is in his tempered scrambled brain's viewpoint. And he's being a hypocrite because his own people were also having a civil war and his own member council wanted the death of everybody for nothing before he got amnesia, so he shouldnt view himself as better than the generations to come, but you shouldn't expect that because he's tempered

All data we have in game references the First Astral Era as being prehistoric, so no, it wasn't that he was so brainwashed by a dark god he imagined the people reduced to 1/14th of their intelligence as animals. It was that she turned them into animals.

And even if she hadn't devolved the species. Even if the one and only thing she did was remove their immortality, she'd still be a mass murderer. If you reduce my lifespan from 70 years to five minutes, you are a murderer.

ETA: On Ultima Thul Emet-Selch says, "My ideals are inviolate, invincible."

If he was simply tempered not only would he have not been able to take actions to end his own life, like telling the WoL where to find him after kidnapping G'raha, which his Elpis self recognized as a suicide attempt, he also wouldn't have stood there long after Zodiark was dead, say, "I regret nothing." Refuse Hydaelyn's apology by being resurrected and turn around and go right back to the aetherial sea.

Even after all is said and done, he refuses to believe the salvation of the star HAD to be bought with the blood of his people. And I believe that too. Hydaelyn was a sociopath. That is the only way she could have done half the things she did. My sense of empathy would never allow me to amass the pile of bodies she did no matter the reward.

At least Emet-Selch has the defense that what we were turned into wasn't human and he was trying to put us back together so that we were people again. Even though I'm sure that excuse got harder and harder as time passed and we re-evolved.

But Hydaelyn looked at a world of people just as human and she was and thought, "Yeah, I should kill them all and assume complete control of their world." That action passed the "morally correct" sniff test for her. And for anyone who tries to argue it was transformation, not murder, well, she knew the Ascians would kill her "transformed" children in droves and set them free to perform that duty for her. So...still the most villainous character in the FF14 universe. Thordan? Pfft, he wanted to bring an end to war, Hydaelyn wanted to make more wars. Nidhogg? He actually left Ishgard standing and gave them a chance to come over to his side. She killed all her allies. Athena? Failed Hydaelyn, get gud scrub. The Ascians. Literal pawns. They labored for 12k years in an attempt to repair what she destroyed only to discover she was just using them to up her kill count.

But hey, Answers, am I right?

ETA2: Also the Lopporrits explain that tempering was something added to the magic when the Ascians taught it to us and it's possible to create a primal without being tempered. And that with a being as powerful as Zodiark you might feel a tug. That does not sound like someone who was so brainwashed he couldn't judge people who couldn't form words anymore or became part cat to fill the gaps left in their genetic code were in need of rejoining. And Venat attempting to "stop" Zodiark's creation really isn't an act of trying to help because without informing them of the real problem, if they agreed with her and didn't summon him they would have all died in the Final Days. She needed to create discord over Zodiark so that she'd have the excuse necessary for people to sac themselves to make her a god. If she really wanted a solution besides Zodiark, she would have told them what the problem was, but she didn't. With the one and only person with knowledge of the future, she set them up to suffer and die every step of the way. People assume she tried to do good because they are assuming she's a good person and are working backwards. But her primary concern was survival and she believed the only way for her familiars to survive was if they got good at enduring suffering, which meant that every step of the way increased suffering was her goal, not decreased suffering.

[Anonymoose]

If he was simply tempered not only would he have not been able to take actions to end his own life, like telling the WoL where to find him after kidnapping G'raha, which his Elpis self recognized as a suicide attempt, he also wouldn't have stood there long after Zodiark was dead, say, "I regret nothing." Refuse Hydaelyn's apology by being resurrected and turn around and go right back to the aetherial sea.

Even after all is said and done, he refuses to believe the salvation of the star HAD to be bought with the blood of his people. And I believe that too. Hydaelyn was a sociopath.

There's plenty of room to interpret the story in different ways and find flaws in the presentation without giving selective (in)attention to certain lines to gild the lily, imho.
(Maybe that's a silly sentiment in the "What lore do you ignore?" thread, though, lol.)

Hades both stands by his dedication to his people and admits that he never would have succeeded. (Twice accepting his defeat as valid in just Ultima Thule.) At the same time that he says he has no desire to live as Hades when the world he loved is gone and will never return, he also - after being reminded of the true threat beyond the stars and seeing you on the cusp of victory over it - finally accepts the ancients and the sundered as one humanity with one voice, and looks forward to returning to see the world you have won for life (that is, as a mortal). (Hythlodaeus extends this to "I hope we meet again in that life!" but Hades grumbles at that one.)

CITATION 1

So, here I am, Venat. I suppose you needed me to tie it all together, these frayed threads of our history─but knowing you, I suspect there's a joke in it too. Oh yes, I can imagine you gloating over my forgetfulness. Were I feeling charitable, I might assume you had left room for the possibility of this outcome. Still, you must be commended. Our methods would not have brought mankind this far. And so, as a show of respect to the last of us, I make this declaration. You will not end our journey! That is our answer! The answer of all lives of Etheirys, past and present!

Here's the Japanese, as well, as sometimes people suspect they might be different:

ヴェーネス、あの負けず嫌いめ。私をこの時代まで残しておいたのは、歴史を繋ぐためか、終末の真相を忘れていたことへの当てつけか……。
Venat, you always did hate to lose... Why am I still here? To ensure history connects properly? Or did you just want me to remember the true face of the apocalypse...?

至極好意的に解釈するのならば、こんなオチが生じる可能性を残したのだろうが。
If I were to afford you an supremely generous interpretation, I suppose I left myself open to this punchline.

何にせよ、その程度で掌を返すほど、私の人生は軽くなかった。礼などくれてやるものか。
But my existence has not been so easy that I will change my mind for that. You'll get no thanks from me.

……しかし、人をここに至らせたこと。この結末は、確かに私たちのやり方では掴み得なかったものだ。
...But that it has brought humanity to this point. We would never have grasped this result with our methods.

ならば賛辞と、最後の旧き人への手向けとして、口上のひとつくらいは垂れてやろう……！
So that being the case, as a compliment and final gesture to the last of us, I deliver this message...!

終焉を謳うものよ、私たちはお前によって終わらない！
You who sing of the end, we will not end here!

それが、あの星の過去に生き、今を生きる者からの答えだ……！
From the lips of one who lived in both the worlds of the past and present, this is our answer!

And the French for this one, too, since it's even more explicit:

Venat a toujours eu trop de suite dans les idées. M'aurait-elle épargné pour faire de moi la clef de voûte de son pont à travers les âges? À moins que ce ne soit un reproche voilé, ma punition pour avoir oublié bien malgré moi la cause de l'apocalypse...
Venat always was single-minded... But would she really have spared me to make me the keystone upholding her bridge through the ages? Unless this is a veiled reproach... My punishment for having forgotten the cause of the apocalypse despite myself...

Quoique, si je n'étais pas mauvaise langue, je dirais qu'elle a simplement cherché à orchestrer cet ultime coup de théâtre...
Although, if I was free to give a generous interpretation, I would say that she deliberately orchestrated this final little plot twist...

Si elle s'attend à des remerciements, elle sera bien mal servie. Ma vie ne fut pas un long fleuve tranquille, et ce revirement de cœur n'y changera rien.
If she expects me to be grateful, she will be sorely disappointed. My life was no long, tranquil river, and this change of heart affects that not one bit.

Je dois néanmoins lui reconnaître un certain don d'entremetteuse. Ce n'est pas avec nos méthodes qu'un être humain serait parvenu à mettre les pieds ici.
Nevertheless I must recognize in her a certain...gift as a matchmaker. It is not with our methods that humanity ever would have managed to set foot here.

Soit. En guise d'éloges à Venat, et d'ultime offrande à l'humanité originelle, je peux bien me fendre d'un préambule!
That is to say... By way of praise/eulogy to Venat, and as a final offering to the original humanity, I can well provide a preamble!

Chantre de l'anéantissement, nous ne serons pas défaits par tes vœux funestes!
Singer of annihilation, you will not be our undoing!

Telle est la parole des peuples de jadis et d'aujourd'hu! La réponse qu'ils t'opposent en chœur!
These are the words of the people of the past and the present, the answer we give you as a single choir!

CITATION 2

The encore is finished, and I will not suffer myself to live again by Hydaelyn's magick. But more than that, the future you seek is not the past we loved. That is why we fought. And why I lost. But though you defeated me, my ideals are inviolate. Invincible. Spare me your pity. I have no use for it. If you would do something for me─save our star. See this tale to a triumphant conclusion, and with elation in your hearts, bid the final curtain fall. Only then may it rise again and a new tale begin─with new parts for all to play.

ハイデリンの術に生かされるなど、願い下げだからな。
I have no desire to be sustained by Hydaelyn's power.

……何より、お前たちが進む未来は、私の愛した過去じゃない。だからこそお前たちと本気で、命を懸けて戦ったんだ。
...After all, the future on the horizon is not the past I so dearly loved. That's why I fought you. Fought with everything I had.

その結果ならば、敗北であれ、覆すものか。私が今の私であるかぎり、この想いは砕けない。
Would I change that, knowing it ends in defeat? Never. As long as I am who I am, my sentiments will never be broken.

間違っても哀れんでくれるなよ。お前たちに望むことがあるとすれば、あの忌々しい終末を打ち払うことだけだ。
Do not pity me for my mistakes. I have but one wish - stop this damned apocalypse.

そして勝鬨を喝采に代え、万感の想いとともに、幕を下ろせ。
See the sounds of triumphant battle through to thunderous applause and - with all your heart and soul - bring the curtain down.

それでこそ、次の公演が始められるのだからな。新たな舞台と新たな役で……お前たちも、私たちも。
Only then can a new performance begin. A new stage, with new roles. For you... and for us, too.

Personally, I find it very difficult to reconcile these lines and that tone with some of the perspectives people assign to him. Especially without removing half of the meaning, "Remember us," was supposed to convey. But, again, I'm the kind of person to accept the intent and critique the execution.

Also the Lopporrits explain that tempering was something added to the magic when the Ascians taught it to us and it's possible to create a primal without being tempered. And that with a being as powerful as Zodiark you might feel a tug.

This one however appears to just be sarcasm on the part of Livingway which often gets mistaken for being sincere. The "little tug" appears to be an English-only under-exaggeration akin to the "teeny-tiny toy boat". All 3 other language just say, "Well if it was Zodiark, you'd still be tempered, of course, but it's not, so you won't."

CITATION

In contrast, our creation magicks─the original and the best, accept no substitutes─don't incorporate any of that rubbish, so there's no risk of tempering. I mean, if the being was on the scale of Zodiark, you might feel a little “tug”...but I think we'll be safe enough.

けれど本来の創造魔法に、その概念はありません。さすがにゾディアーク級を創れば引っ張られるでしょうが、今回の規模であれば、ご心配には及ばないかと。
However, original creative magic does not have that concept. Of course, if we were to create something of Zodiark caliber, that would drag you in, but at this scale, I don't think there is any need to worry.

Fort heureusement, ce danger n'existe pas si l'on respecte les rituels originaux. À moins que l'on parle de puissantes entités comme Zordiarche, bien sûr, mais les nôtres seront bien plus modestes.
Fortunately, this danger does not exist if we respect the original rituals. Unless we're talking entities as powerful as Zodiark, of course, but ours will be much more modest.

Aber ihr könnt ganz unbesorgt sein. Die Schöpfungsmagie kommt ohne diesen gemeinen Zusatz zurecht. Außerdem beschwören wir ja keinen zweiten Zodiark, oder? Es besteht also kein Anlass zur Sorge, kann ich euch versichern. Es wird schon schiefgehen!
But you can set your worries aside. Creation magic can do without that nasty little addition. Besides, we're not summoning a second Zodiark, are we? So there is no need to worry, I can assure you.

(As always, corrections welcome on translations, I am by no means a fluent speaker of anything but English.)

[Lady_Silvermoon]

There's plenty of room to interpret the story in different ways and find flaws in the presentation without giving selective (in)attention to certain lines to gild the lily, imho.
(Maybe that's a silly sentiment in the "What lore do you ignore?" thread, though, lol.)

Hades both stands by his dedication to his people and admits that he never would have succeeded. (Twice accepting his defeat as valid in just Ultima Thule.) At the same time that he says he has no desire to live as Hades when the world he loved is gone and will never return, he also - after being reminded of the true threat beyond the stars and seeing you on the cusp of victory over it - finally accepts the ancients and the sundered as one humanity with one voice, and looks forward to returning to see the world you have won for life (that is, as a mortal). (Hythlodaeus extends this to "I hope we meet again in that life!" but Hades grumbles at that one.)

CITATION 1

Here's the Japanese, as well, as sometimes people suspect they might be different:

And the French for this one, too, since it's even more explicit:

CITATION 2

Personally, I find it very difficult to reconcile these lines and that tone with some of the perspectives people assign to him. Especially without removing half of the meaning, "Remember us," was supposed to convey. But, again, I'm the kind of person to accept the intent and critique the execution.



This one however appears to just be sarcasm on the part of Livingway which often gets mistaken for being sincere. The "little tug" appears to be an English-only under-exaggeration akin to the "teeny-tiny toy boat". All 3 other language just say, "Well if it was Zodiark, you'd still be tempered, of course, but it's not, so you won't."

CITATION
(As always, corrections welcome on translations, I am by no means a fluent speaker of anything but English.)

Him admitting that her torture machine did in fact work is not the same as saying I'm fine with you eliminating my species. People grab so hard on that Emet-Selch admitted their tendency to just plow through any problem with overwhelming strength probably wouldn't have gotten them to the edge of the universe to teach emotional regulation to a bird and jump from that to therefore it must have been okay to eradicate his race and create a new species specifically to be tortured...

Given us mere mortals can come up with a dozen ideas better than Venat's torture machine, had the Ancients been given the actual information about the problem, I believe they would have figured something out. But unlike Venat, I actually believe in man's potential and their ability to find a way forward.

Also, even if that was the one and only way to save the universe, I still wouldn't have condoned it because respecting a person's autonomy is my highest moral value. Perpetuating the species isn't even on the list. If all humanity decided to stop making babies tomorrow and I had the power to magically change it, I would not override their will and force them to have kids just so "something" exists. We all know that the universe will eventually end. Taking away people's right to choose just so there is something there to see the heat death of the universe runs contrary to my morals. Especially when making sure 'something' survives involves crippling the people in question.

"Our plan to save humanity involves three month lifespans that you'll spend in agonizing pain." If the species decided it wasn't worth it and to just peace out, I'd let them. But that's because I value people's rights to make decisions about their own lives. She butchered her species and ran them through her despair machine without consent. And given this was a species where half of them volunteered to sacrifice themselves to save the other, I feel like if she explained her plan and the reason for it to them, she'd have probably gotten enough volunteers to be run through her torture machine that she wouldn't have had to take them by force.


ETA:

There's plenty of room to interpret the story in different ways and find flaws in the presentation without giving selective (in)attention to certain lines to gild the lily, imho.
(Maybe that's a silly sentiment in the "What lore do you ignore?" thread, though, lol.)

The only way I can reconcile what the game and other sources are telling me happened with how they want me to feel about what happened is that tone and details are being decided by two different people. More specifically, I theorize that Natsuko Ishikawa had been setting Venat up to be a villain since Shadowbringers and Yoshi P overrode it and decided he wanted her to be a hero and so they presented her that way without changing any of her actions. This is the only way I can make sense of what I'm looking at because I can't believe they'd try to sell me on Venat's actions unless someone, somewhere doesn't full get what she did.

I have considered the possibility that it's me that is misunderstanding her actions. But even if I accepted every contradictory claim made by those arguing with me. That she tried to help the Ancients, even though they have to die for her plan to handle Meteion to work. That the Ancients weren't killed, though any transformation that extreme counts at death to me. That it was the one and only possible way to save the universe...so basically, a being made by one guy couldn't possibly be defeated by anything of his species all working together? That the one and only way to save the world was for one woman to decide the fate of everyone for twelve thousand years? That's antithetical to everything in the story including Endwalker where the entire world comes together to defeat Meteion. So we could do it, cause we're superior, but they had no chance being the inferior species...seriously, I can't believe this was done on purpose...

Even if I were to accept everything at face value and hit myself in the head until I forgot about all the glaring contradictions, we end up at Gilead. A situation where it's okay to do literally anything to people if it means preserving the species...I play FF14 to relax. I want to fish and marketboard PVP without thinking about the horrors upon which this world is built. I am rooting for someone to somehow make it all make sense without my WoL being a mutated catalyst for genocide in an unending torture loop. But I mostly just get comments about the Ancients unworthiness to live or assurances their massacre was the only way cause the story says so.

Even if they retconned it and told us that we're actually volunteers that agreed to be sundered and run through her torture simulator and that the rest of the Ancients were outside of time and space waiting for us to fix the problem, I'd feel better.