Jobs Haven’t been as “classic” of late

[Shougun]

By that logic any version of any job that exists in 14 that’s not the version you want (because you want a different games version) can be discounted

You missed it, but perhaps it was my own fault for being hard to follow. I don't care what you call a thing, I care what the thing is. If a player, with obvious intent (such that you know what they're wanting IS), calls for a thing by name A, which you have already used the name A for something ELSE, then it is disingenuous to call them the same thing when they're not- at least in a discussion that transcends world spaces (like when talking to different cultures using the same base language, not all words are the same meaning even when everything else about it is .. 'the same').

Therefore when someone is asking for a classic job that has obvious consistency, and we have none of it (at least available in an end game setting lol), you can see we have two different 'objects' even if they have the same name. If I call new sword looking thing a hammer, and you ask for a hammer (in obvious reference to.. hammers... lol), it would be disingenuous of me to say we have hammers when I can use my brain to realize what you want is not the hammer I've provided but a hammer from a different worldspace. Maybe when I add it I'll call it a Philips screw driver cause I'm cheeky, but I can still meet your desires- rather than telling you a lie "we already have it".

Therefore when I see "we already have that" I think "no.. you don't, that's pretty disingenuous". That said I doubt they intended it as such, but simply put we don't have Geomancer as they want it (where's the earth spells? Lol) we have Geomancer only in 'name' which is irrelevant when ultimately the object (content/body, not label) is the true relevance.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Well WHM has been constantly moving further away from it's Conjurer roots and becoming exclusively "Light" based...

But for Geomancers in general... For the longest time, Geomancer has apparently kind of been a mistranslation of the job in most FF games as apparently it's meant to be based around Feng shui (although that has been translated at Geomancy as well), but I don't know what someone doing it should be called... On AST and GEO, it's essentially just thematic difference, one uses the Earth to predict stuff and the other uses Stars.

[Supersnow845]

You missed it, but perhaps it was my own fault for being hard to follow. I don't care what you call a thing, I care what the thing is. If a player, with obvious intent (such that you know what they're wanting IS), calls for a thing by name A, which you have already used the name A for something ELSE, then it is disingenuous to call them the same thing when they're not- at least in a discussion that transcends world spaces (like when talking to different cultures using the same base language, not all words are the same meaning even when everything else about it is .. 'the same').

Therefore when someone is asking for a classic job that has obvious consistency, and we have none of it (at least available in an end game setting lol), you can see we have two different 'objects' even if they have the same name. If I call new sword looking thing a hammer, and you ask for a hammer (in obvious reference to.. hammers... lol), it would be disingenuous of me to say we have hammers when I can use my brain to realize what you want is not the hammer I've provided but a hammer from a different worldspace. Maybe when I add it I'll call it a Philips screw driver cause I'm cheeky, but I can still meet your desires- rather than telling you a lie "we already have it".

Therefore when I see "we already have that" I think "no.. you don't, that's pretty disingenuous". That said I doubt they intended it as such, but simply put we don't have Geomancer as they want it (where's the earth spells? Lol) we have Geomancer only in 'name' which is irrelevant when ultimately the object (content/body, not label) is the true relevance.

I mean if you want “consistency” with an existing job but don’t care what it’s called then point to geomancer then basically just play BLM, BLM with ley lines is the closest they would be able to get to the terrain system in geo anyway because of how static 14 is in terms of raid design

[Shougun]

I mean if you want “consistency” with an existing job but don’t care what it’s called then point to geomancer then basically just play BLM, BLM with ley lines is the closest they would be able to get to the terrain system in geo anyway because of how static 14 is in terms of raid design

Leylines is definitely the most positionally like thing related to magic, akin to Geomancer, but do you sincerely think your suggestion is a good one? Like you read: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Geomancer

And you instantly think "BLM IS GEO!"? I mean sincerely not "close enough, meh I don't care about their desires". I know you're trying to defend someone who said no, and you will naturally try to be biased to that argument (as I am against the idea of closing conversations on things we don't actually have)- but sincerely is that similar? BLM has leylines and its too hard to think of terrain related ideas, therefore please play BLM? If WHM had kept all the elements, may have been a better argument but given they abandoned that ship I'd also go "is that honestly sincere?".

CaptainLagbeard did bring up a good point on how the English paints a picture that wasn't really meant to be there as much as we (EN speakers) see it, but still. I read https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Geomancer and I don't see a job in our game that represents that (with old WHM being close, but is now gone, and therefore not represented.. obviously lol).

Anyway so we don't lose the plot, my main point for calling it out- is I really hate to see shutdown rhetoric to people's ideas. Usually I see it in 'lore no' as I call it, but where people put no effort into realizing they're shutting down an entirely possible dream without any effort. Like when people said a dark job was not possible and then I went on a rant about how reapers could be a thing-- like six or seven months prior to the release of that job ;/.

Rather than say we already have what a person obviously wants but we DONT have.. perhaps we can articulate what they wanted and how it might be brought forth.

[Heroman3003]

The problem with classic jobs is that a ton of classic jobs had a lot of crossover with one another in terms of abilities, something FF14's current job design completely went away from. Meaning that several of jobs mentioned already have a lot of their actual 'identity' beyond just visuals and name represented in other jobs that we do have. Thats why they started straying from classic jobs, because remaining ones just have very little left other than just the name and aesthetic idea, and it would basically be a Sage situation with most of them, where job is named same, but all its abilities are something brand new. At which point, whats classic about them?

[Sindele]

Most of the classic jobs we don't have are either a) not all that classic, just FF11 rehashes, b) lacked what could reasonably called a series identity in the first place (hi, Necromancer), or c) derived their identity from modes of play that just don't make sense here (hi, Chemist and Oracle). If all you're cribbing is a vague aesthetic, 'but it's traditional!' doesn't really mean anything.

I'm not thrilled by Pictomancer because it feels tonally out of place with the current lineup... and the animations look terrible, and I'm going to be driven insane by the sound effects... but it's got about as much of a classic connection as anything on OP's list.

[Supersnow845]

Leylines is definitely the most positionally like thing related to magic, akin to Geomancer, but do you sincerely think your suggestion is a good one? Like you read: https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Geomancer

And you instantly think "BLM IS GEO!"? I mean sincerely not "close enough, meh I don't care about their desires". I know you're trying to defend someone who said no, and you will naturally try to be biased to that argument (as I am against the idea of closing conversations on things we don't actually have)- but sincerely is that similar? BLM has leylines and its too hard to think of terrain related ideas, therefore please play BLM? If WHM had kept all the elements, may have been a better argument but given they abandoned that ship I'd also go "is that honestly sincere?".

CaptainLagbeard did bring up a good point on how the English paints a picture that wasn't really meant to be there as much as we (EN speakers) see it, but still. I read https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Geomancer and I don't see a job in our game that represents that (with old WHM being close, but is now gone, and therefore not represented.. obviously lol).

Anyway so we don't lose the plot, my main point for calling it out- is I really hate to see shutdown rhetoric to people's ideas. Usually I see it in 'lore no' as I call it, but where people put no effort into realizing they're shutting down an entirely possible dream without any effort. Like when people said a dark job was not possible and then I went on a rant about how reapers could be a thing-- like six or seven months prior to the release of that job ;/.

Rather than say we already have what a person obviously wants but we DONT have.. perhaps we can articulate what they wanted and how it might be brought forth.

“I hate to see shutdown of ideas”

Proceeds to strawman my point

I’m not saying BLM is GEO, I’m saying most of the classical jobs that don’t currently exist in the game don’t exist because

A) their mechanics wouldn’t work in the game/are already used by existing classes in the game (such as GEO’s terrain being very close to only really being a leylines equivalent if you tried to port it to 14)

B) are functionally visually very similar to an existing class in the game (again GEO is very similar to WHM sub level 80 which is still a very significant portion of what content people will play)

When you break down what GEO can’t use because of crossover with existing class design and aesthetic if they were still to build a class it wouldn’t remotely resemble actual GEO (similar to SGE in 14 doesn’t remotely resemble classic SGE), I guess I’m not opposed to building a random class and calling it GEO but is really what people who want GEO want

[TBerry]

You could make either your own DnD campaign, or get into FFXIV RP, which opens up possibilities to have such jobs.
My character is a more or less classical ranger In-Character, as she was a huntress for he tribe.

[StarRosie]

The SB AST quests are literally there, saying "AST is GEO, GEO is AST" and the only difference is the weapon.

We already have GEO.

That is not even remotely close to what that questline was trying to say. AST and GEO seem like two sides of the same coin, but they are ultimately different practices. What it does do is say that AST and GEO share enough similarities to each other that they can actually learn from each other. That Leveva and Kyokuho can learn from each other's practices to evolve their own. Things can share traits without being exactly the same. This is also why the whole "GEO is just CNJ but with a bell." crap annoyed the heck out of me because so many people missed the message.

[Cach]

Yoshi is purposefully distancing himself from "the classics".

I'm guessing he wants to leave his footprint on FF as a whole by "inventing" new stuff without straying too far.