(EW Spoilers) Tales from the Dawn #5 - Days Gone By, Days Yet to Come

[Cleretic]

and moreso when you get that happy little pang of satisfaction when one of your personal headcanons pans out! Right from when 5.0 dropped, I always saw Azem's defection as an out-and-out condemnation of the initial Summoning and the sacrifices involved, and it's really cool to get that confirmed.

I would argue this isn't 'confirmation of headcanon', so much as 'confirmation of reading comprehension and interpretation'; very little of what Lyth just posted (or what I've seen said by others elsewhere on the subject of the Ancients) is actually new information, so much as confirmation of what we were already told, in a more neutral, 'word of god' context. Specifically I think that piece came from an NPC in Fake Amaurot, which is sort of a perfect example of the difficulties with imperfect in-universe sources; it's near impossible to read Fake Amaurot for any sort of objective truth, to the point where even the characters in the story want a second opinion. And a lot of the story of the Ancients has similar issues: we've been hearing facts that clearly have some level of objective truth, from sources that have known subjective bias, and we've been left to try to piece that all together. So good job figuring that part out, but that's a different skillset than coming up with consistent headcanons.

And none of that's necessarily a negative, I find it to be the most important part of the Encyclopedia Eorzea books: the main thing I'm excited about is actually getting all the viera and hrothgar information in one easily-referenced place, rather than scattered in a bunch of weird corners.

[Lunaxia]

I would argue this isn't 'confirmation of headcanon', so much as 'confirmation of reading comprehension and interpretation'

Half of this thread is people literally sharing their own various interpretations of what Azem was thinking and feeling during the Final Days saga, including you, and arguing over it. So not only is this, as always, marvellously patronising, it's also completely wrong, as clearly not everyone saw it that way.

"Confirmation of interpretation" lol, what on earth do you think a headcanon is?

very little of what Lyth just posted (or what I've seen said by others elsewhere on the subject of the Ancients) is actually new information

All we got from Amaurot was "hey, there were Fourteen, now there are Thirteen!", then "defying fate in their own way" from the pointless side story so as not to ruffle too many feathers for the happy ending. Official confirmation that they publicly disagreed with the Convocation and went toe-to-toe with them on the grounds of the sacrifices and defecting once they were shut down is absolutely notable brand new information that also significantly informs Azem as a character.

[Cleretic]

Half of this thread is people literally sharing their own various interpretations of what Azem was thinking and feeling during the Final Days saga, including you, and arguing over it. So not only is this, as always, marvellously patronising, it's also completely wrong, as clearly not everyone saw it that way.

"Confirmation of interpretation" lol, what on earth do you think a headcanon is?

I'm not being patronizing, I'm literally complimenting you, and just highlighting that it's a different skillset than you were claiming. You found the correct piece of evidence to read as fact, when none of the rest of us did, including me: good job, genuinely! I'm quite confident that the person who said something very close to this was an NPC in Fake Amaurot, but that's gonna be hard to check given that it could be an idle NPC, an MSQ-relevant character, a yellow-quester, or even an idle NPC that only says that during a certain MSQ step.

And my interpretation of 'headcanon', as well as I believe most people's, is 'this is what I call true to me with little to no evidence'. If you like yours being more 'canon-plausible' than others do, that's more power to you, but I very much doubt that any of us would argue it's secretly canon that Azem was brother to Hyth, or Elidibus' lover, or has the temperament of Fray in my least favorite Dark Knight quest. It's just a fun little thought exercise and way to flesh out quiet parts of the story; I wasn't arguing about it at all, except to defend that mine does, in fact, fit into the box we've been given.

[Lunaxia]

I'm not being patronizing, I'm literally complimenting you, and just highlighting that it's a different skillset than you were claiming.

If that was your intent, the "reading comprehension" line coupled with "we didn't actually learn anything new" doesn't come off well, and underlying all of this is that your basis for that judgement isn't even correct. Nowhere is any of this said, and Amaurot in particular is incredibly shadowy and vague about what actually happened with Azem and the Convocation. Just one NPC makes a comment, suggesting a seat is soon to become vacant, but they struggle to believe it as more than a rumour, and the only other source we have is of course Hythlodaeus confirming it with his singular "Convocation of Thirteen" line. And that's it. Nothing relating to any displays of disapproval, conflict, issues with the initial sacrifices or literally anything else about Azem and why they left is given away - if anything, it's depicted as more of a quiet, unannounced departure or withdrawal and you're left to draw your own conclusions about the character in just about every respect, so any extra details is a form of headcanon. If it were said, hours upon hours spent in these forums might feasibly have been saved, lol... and the past few pages of this discussion would not exist, which is what I was saying earlier.

If I've truly jumped the gun then I'll admit it, but I just find it weird to set out to make that distinction to begin with, when all I was doing was remarking I was pleasantly surprised a headcanon I'd long harboured turned out the way it did. I was never claiming any skillset, nor do I see why headcanons would even require them - at that point, it's leaning into theory-crafting - and it's difficult to spot a supposed compliment when it simultaneously undermines what you're saying.

[Lyth]

I wasn't expecting Azem's objection to Zodiark's summoning to be news in itself. Even setting aside the peripheral clues that you receive on arriving to Amaurot, Hythlodaeus specifically tells you in 5.3 that Azem opposed Zodiark's summoning and that their office was left permanently vacant due to their departure. Understandably, I can see how it might be difficult for someone who hasn't quite reached level 80 yet to gather data on this. Now that I think about it, I'm really quite curious how you might have come by any of these details at all.

No, the only reason why I thought it interesting enough to mention is because this is the first time I've seen a direct statement that Azem was against the sacrifices (as opposed to any other factor related to the summoning). Which is naturally interesting, and lends itself to why Venat's group would have tried to send word to them. After all, Azem was the very first member of Amaurotine society to raise this objection. I'm sure that this would have played a part in eventually giving others the courage to speak out as well.

I don't think that the idea of having society be divided on an issue is a bad thing. Confrontations weren't a new development within Amaurotine society, but they historically expected that all their disagreements would resolved through (or at least be entertained) in the form of debate. It's unsurprising that the Final Days raised questions about the reliability of Creation Magic or the effectiveness of the Convocation's leadership. This was likely just the first time that a Convocation was ever actually exposed to political fallout and public scrutiny, which is why they were unprepared to manage the backlash from the populace. The coup was to be expected.

If it makes you feel any better, however, the EE Vol.3 specifically states that all the entries on the Final Days are based solely on testimony provided by the Scions, and that you have official permission to 'agree to disagree' with the information contained within it.

[Lunaxia]

Understandably, I can see how it might be difficult for someone who hasn't quite reached level 80 yet to gather data on this. Now that I think about it, I'm really quite curious how you might have come by any of these details at all.

Ah, is this towards me? If so, the character I use here is an alt. I've been here since Heavensward's release. If that is what you meant, I find it amusing some people may have gone away with the notion I've been waxing lyrical on the story this long with a character still in their 70s, lol.

Both Azem being against the sacrifices at all and how that actually panned out are interesting and novel enough to warrant mention to me considering how little we've had to go on regarding either, even if the former is more impactful from a lore perspective. It's still fairly significant in terms of the dynamics between the characters and how it lends itself to understanding their behaviour retroactively, and that they felt it worth mentioning suggests the writers thought so as well.

I don't think that the idea of having society be divided on an issue is a bad thing.

I would maybe take a broad view of pretty much most periods of world history and perhaps re-examine that statement. Even in cases of ultimately beneficial outcomes, the cost/ fallout from it is often extremely heavy. And it is a tragedy, as it would be anywhere, for a nation/ society to not be able to unite and depend on each other during a time of great loss, turmoil and distress.

...and that you have official permission to 'agree to disagree' with the information contained within it.

I parse that as "this is what we're saying happened but we don't want to step on your interpretations" personally, lol.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I always feel mentions of this just call attention to something left undone. Azem failed. We ran off; left our best friends behind (who we made special magic just to call to us when we feel like it, that we didn't use), in their direst hour, leaving them to meet their end with no goodbye from us; and all to fail them in the end -- to go off and try to find some solution that we never actually found, and then, for all we know, we just died in a ditch somewhere.

Is it realistic in a "best laid plans of mice and men" kinda way? Yes. Is it a story I like? No.

The only way I can enjoy being reminded of this is to interpret it as a future story thread. There needs to be something going on there that we will be told eventually and will justify why Azem spent his/her final moments chasing their tail instead of being with those who loved them. Otherwise, I kinda hate being reminded of it.

And I'm an ancients' fan. I like this story a lot. Gimme all the World Unsundered content. Its just that having the "Azem left and that's the last we saw of them" button pushed makes me sad. Especially when the story takes pains to tell us that Hades held out hope to the last. I'd have a hard time forgiving us, if I was him. In fact, it probably explains some of his ShB behavior a bit more.

To be fair, Azem likely didn't know their final moments had come. I doubt Venat gave a countdown til the sundering. 5...4...3...

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I doubt they even knew of all of the effects of her plan and would have been horrified if they had known. I doubt genocide would have been ok with them at all

I agree. It doesn't sound like the people who sacrificed themselves for Venat's plan knew she intended to destroy everything. There is no way she told Azem or they would have been spending their final days trying to stop her.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

I doubt Azem would have been too pleased with the convocation's plan to sacrifice newly born souls to bring back the good old days. Also we don't even know if Azem got the message Venat sent them. All we were told is that they did not get a reply and since they were missing since the end of the world some might be jumping the gun as to if they even got the message and decided to ignore it because they didn't agree. I doubt Azem would let one of thier best friends commit sensless murder to bring back their other best friend who gave his life for the good of all that would live. I'd imagine they'd be pretty pissed and wondering what happened to him.

Even the Scions admit in Emet-Selch's position they'd be doing the exact same thing. Had he succeeded, he would have been the hero that eliminated war, poverty, r8pe, disease and senseless death. And the people born into that new world would have mourned us about as much as we mourned the Ancients, "New phone, who dis?"

I don't think you fully grasp what Emet-Selch saw when the world was sundered. 1/14 of human intelligence is half as smart as an ape. They had to work their way back up to ape intelligence. They had no ability to form words. The new races exist because they were so mutilated, they mutated into new forms. And they had the lifespan of fruitflies.

Ask the voidsent or the sineaters or blasphemies what we do to intelligent life that mutates to a point of incompatibility with us. We stab it to death. Emet-Selch saw his people turned into something he could no longer recognize as life and he did the exact same thing we've done time and time again when someone morphs into something incompatible with life--we kill it. People take what he says as namecalling, but he's explaining. What Venat did took them so far from what they'd recognize as a person, the obvious solution was to put the shattered pieces back together again. And it wasn't murder because what they were destroying mindless mutated monsters from their perspective.

But then imagine as we attempt to save the world, the sineaters grow to become more like us. Imagine if they start talking, praying, building cities. Do you keep killing them or do you yield the world to light allowing human life as you know it to come to an end? That was the choice Emet-Selch was faced with and there is no easy, obvious right answer on when to accept the extermination of your species.

[Lady_Silvermoon]

And some of us really dislike that.

I don't care about Azem being like my character. We got through Shadowbringers in Ardbert's company without having an identity crisis about him being the same soul as our character and yet having his own story, appearance and identity.

In the same way, Azem could so easily be a unique character. They could take after Ardbert rather than us, or resemble any or none of the countless mortals who have inherited their soul since the Sundering.

I would much rather that Azem had a role to play, than this endless dance about "we promise Azem is around and doing cool stuff even though you'll never get to hear anything solid about them or their activities. Oh look they're off again, sorry you missed them."

I'm traumatized enough. I don't want to find out a past reincarnation of me condoned the destruction of an entire world and for my best friend/possible love interest to be tortured for 12 thousand years straight along with my Ancient G'raha who adored me so much he became me as he tried to kill me. No. No more. My WoL has enough blood of sweet, innocent people on her hands thanks to Endwalker. Unless Azem was doing everything in their power to stop Venat, I don't wanna hear about it.