No Wrong Answers: What Job(s) do you think are the best desgined, and why?

[Rithy255]

Right now? Summoner, but in saying that it's probably one of the worst when it gets synced down.

I'd say summoner is poorly designed but actually is fun in synched down content relative to other jobs.

I know if i had to go back and do ARR content I'd likely just pick summoner because it keeps a lot of its rotational basics, while other jobs feel worse, infact I like how it casts more in lower levels.

[Ardeth]

I'd say summoner is poorly designed but actually is fun in synched down content relative to other jobs.

I know if i had to go back and do ARR content I'd likely just pick summoner because it keeps a lot of its rotational basics, while other jobs feel worse, infact I like how it casts more in lower levels.

I have no issues with it. Honestly, job simplicity to me isn't a bad thing. To me, the easier something is to play, the harder you can make the content, etc. I tend to excel at mechanics more when I have less to think about while playing my class. It's more of a me thing(ADHD and learning disabilities) that I feel comfortable with. I challenged myself the other day to close my eyes and muscle memory my rotation, and I nailed it. Even the doing the cooldowns in my head. So, for me, that counts more than anything.

I think it’s mostly because you lose your big summons. The substitute is very boring. You're right in that it doesn't really change, which is a good thing in that respect.

[Rithy255]

I have no issues with it. Honestly, job simplicity to me isn't a bad thing. To me, the easier something is to play, the harder you can make the content, etc. I tend to excel at mechanics more when I have less to think about while playing my class. It's more of a me thing(ADHD and learning disabilities) that I feel comfortable with. I challenged myself the other day to close my eyes and muscle memory my rotation, and I nailed it. Even the doing the cooldowns in my head. So, for me, that counts more than anything.

I think it’s mostly because you lose your big summons. The substitute is very boring. You're right in that it doesn't really change, which is a good thing in that respect.

Yeah I get where you're coming from, I'm fine with more simple job designs (as long as some jobs are more harder it's always good to have choices) that's not my issue with the Job outright (even if I enjoy it less), I personally just dislike the lack of casting on a caster job, I feel like that's kind of the point of the physical ranged role. Poorly designed is also more of a opinion as one person can find something not fun, while another may enjoy it, I personally don't like how Summoner feels like a better Red mage at most things mobility obviously, I guess the only advantage RDM has is chain rez (which usefulness of that depends and also can drain mana fast). I think rotation wise the job is perfectly fine, even if it's not for me.

I get that maybe the animations/feel might be a bit different at lower levels, most jobs are really poorly designed at low levels such as tanks lacking mitigations, or anything other then 1,2,3 dps wise. I think the good thing about Summoner in early levels is you've got the skeleton of the Job it adds on later down the line.

[Renathras]

Summoner is significantly less engaging in synced content given the transforming buttons and that it rivals healers in simplicity. What is there to keep you engaged and your mind from wandering? In shadowbringers it had two dots, fester, energy drain and egi assaults to break up the ruin spam. Now there is only ruin spam and energy drain. At all levels.

I think the problem is you're comparing SMN against old SMN, not SMN in a vacuum as a Job. "In shadowbringers it had..." isn't relevant to if the current design itself is good or not. It's only relevant to if you liked the old design better or not. It's like SGE. In a vacuum, SGE's design isn't at all bad. It's entirely serviceable. Where it gets into trouble is it was added to a game that already had SCH in it, and it was basically made as SCH 2.0 with all the QOL things SCH players had been asking for for years given to it instead, and for people who wanted something to shake up healer gameplay, it instead doubled down on it. I think Misshapen Chair said it best when he said "I don't hate Sage, but I hate what it represents."

I get that maybe the animations/feel might be a bit different at lower levels, most jobs are really poorly designed at low levels such as tanks lacking mitigations, or anything other then 1,2,3 dps wise. I think the good thing about Summoner in early levels is you've got the skeleton of the Job it adds on later down the line.

Agreed.

One of the things I HATED on PLD before 6.3 was if I synced into literally anything lower level than level 90 content (the very level cap), my muscle memory would actively work against me. In level 90 content, you'd exit the caster phase with a Royal combo, since Swords inflicted a DoT that couldn't be stacked with Goring. But in literally EVERY OTHER CONTENT in the entire game (where you have Requiescat and thus the magic phase), it was the opposite, with you leaving caster phase into a Goring combo. For any content you synced to before ShB, you didn't have Atonement, so you had to adjust to that, too. For any content before Requiescat, you had to adjust further to not having a caster phase at all. And as you say, lacking so many mitigations. Not to mention PLD is still the only Tank that doesn't have rotational healing/sustain built into its main rotation until level 84 when that function gets added to Holy Spirit/Circle. Even after the rework, PLD's rotation is all over the place depending on what you've been synced to.

BLM does this same thing and I hate it just as much - if not more - on BLM.

Contrast with WAR, where it has basically the entire core Job rotation by level 50. By level 50, you have your 1-2-3 and 1-2-4 upkeep buff combos. You generate gauge that you spend on Inner Beast (low level Fell Cleave which upgrades into Fell Cleave directly). You have Berserk at level 6 as low level Inner Release. And you have Infuriate. Your -3 gives you rotational healing for sustain. You have all your role actions, Vengeance, Holmgang, and Thrill of Battle, which with that self-healing is enough to do the job, and more importantly, your rotation is more or less the same as level 90. The only difference at 90 is you use Primal Rend after Inner Release, you have 4 oGCDs (Upheaval and 3x Onslaughts) to weave (but this doesn't change your GCD rotation), and you can't use quite as many Inner Beasts as you can level 90 Fell Cleaves since you don't get the 3 free ones. But overall, you have all your buttons (or lower ranks of them), and all the core concepts of the Job (build and spend gauge, don't overcap gauge or Infuriate, maintain Storm's Eye damage buff, cycle CDs as needed for defense) by level 50.

SMN is more like WAR than like PLD/BLM. You have the bare bones of the kit by level 22 when you get your third Lego. At that point, you have your spam spell, Aethercharge (as a proto-DWT/Bahamut/Phoenix), and each of your proto-Egis, and each of them have the same characteristic of their cadence (Topaz 4 instants with a standard GCD, Emerald 4 instants with a reduced GCD, and Ruby 2 long cast spells). The only thing that changes is you have 3 more GCDs a minute to fill since you don't have Slipstream, Crimson Cyclone, and Crimson Strike (Mountain Buster is an oGCD, so though it feels weird not to push, it doesn't change the GCD cadence/flow of the Job's rotation), and it still has Energy Drain and Fester (level 11). So basically you end up casting 3-4 extra Ruin 1s. By level 26, it has its AOE kit as well, minus Energy Siphon (level 52 for some odd reason) and Painflare (level 40), but you have the AOE GCD cycle and can just sub in the single target versions of those spells and are essentially "feature complete" at level 26 in terms of the skeleton of the kit being put together. After that, it's additions and spell upgrades until level 86 adds the Primal Astral Flows.

What this means is, unless you're doing Sastasha, Tam-Tara, of Copperbell (levels 15, 16, and 17; Halatali is 20 but syncs at level 23!), you have EFFECTIVELY a near-usable end-game single target rotation. And if you exclude Halatali and Bowl of Embers (4 man), then you also have your core AOE rotation. Earlier than a lot of other Jobs get theirs, btw (looking at you, DRG, Healers, etc.)

I think SMN can feel more incomplete because you don't have the Demis or the level 86 Astral Flows, but in terms of the basic rotation, it's all there before you even get your Job stone, a feat few other Jobs can actually claim. In fact, I'm not sure ANY can. RDM isn't feature complete until around level 60, WAR around level 50, etc. Other than Healers, but even they aren't really feature complete in that sense (WHM doesn't get its first Lily until 52 and doesn't get Misery until ShB...)

The particularly nice thing about Jobs like SMN and WAR is that they still play MOSTLY the same when you do any synced content, which is good in a game where we do...a lot of synced content. And while they feel a bit empty, people complain about that with Jobs like SAM and RPR, which are far busier at higher levels as well, yet somehow even more barebones (and farther from their level 90 incarnations) when you sync.