And the slow death of the RPG based battlesystem

[HikariKurosawa]

This is the dps role forum. I agree that this conversation will continue to go in circles because you're pushing a false narrative.

[Rithy255]

This is the dps role forum. I agree that this conversation will continue to go in circles because you're pushing a false narrative.

False narrative? I'm stating my opinion on how I view things and how others view things if you would like to tell me what false narratives I've made I'd like to know, also this thread mentioned aggro management and healing, it wasn't just about DPS.

Edit: I'm only responding because you're accusing me of spreading false narratives.

[HikariKurosawa]

False narrative? I'm stating my opinion on how I view things and how others view things if you would like to tell me what false narratives I've made I'd like to know, also this thread mentioned aggro management and healing, it wasn't just about DPS.

Edit: I'm only responding because you're accusing me of spreading false narratives.

The narrative that jobs are becoming the same lol. I ask you to explain why and you couldn't. I ask you to explain how you would do it differently and you couldn't. I'm not even sure what people like you want. Overly complex rotations that feel really annoying to execute, against a boss that has to be boring by design because the rotation complexity is so high? Rotations are more enjoyable and diverse than ever before, they removed a lot of annoying busywork that encouraged installing third party addons so the players could focus less on the boss and more on their annoying rotations.

[ZiraZ]

What annoying busywork that encouraged 3rd party addons?

[Rithy255]

my false narrative is Jobs are becoming the same? that's a matter of opinion I'm sorry but just because you don't find something the same doesn't mean other people will, how i view it is A lot of core fundamentals in jobs are the same but theirs some variance in rotations, I'd personally prefer more variance in when a job bursts, what a job does ect. But I'm not saying every job plays the same, they're just more similar then they used to be.

I think jobs are closer then they were before, but aren't "all the same" what they do have in common now though is a lot of them serve the same purpose, like i said physranged used to be a piller of support for players who may not quite want to play Healer or Tank but wanted to play something more support based in terms of DPS, which is the role they used to fit and a lot of people liked that. Infact I really like Black Mage's current design because it feels so different from everything else, My point wasn't everything played the exact same, certain jobs are certainly more similar to other jobs then they used to be, that's how I see it though others people can feel free to see it differently It doesn't bother me.

for me I don't want every job to have overly complex rotations but jobs like Paladin I dont just want to be pressing 1,2,3 atonement x3, Holy spirit over and over again then press my burst button 4 times, I want different combos... This is just a example for me though, I think the game is at it's best when you have a mix of complicated rotations and more easier to understand rotations. So yeah I wouldn't mind *some* "overly" complicated rotations for the people who want them, I personally rather play something more middle of the road in terms of difficulty. What I mean is in terms of varity it would add a lot more to have more complicated jobs, but also more easy to get into jobs as variance in playstyles and gameplay difficulty appeals to me.

I just want to go back to your first post here but a lot of peoples fun used to be in the complex class design, overly complicated rotations, optimising jobs during difficult fights, It's a matter of opinion if someone preferred how it used to feel, at the end of the day people play the game for different reasons so people voicing how they preferred old class design doesn't get fixed by difficult fights as a lot of those people aren't really interested in just having fight design be important, they want team based RPG elements and more to do with their job then just rotation differences.

[VentVanitas]

The narrative that jobs are becoming the same lol. I ask you to explain why and you couldn't. I ask you to explain how you would do it differently and you couldn't. I'm not even sure what people like you want. Overly complex rotations that feel really annoying to execute, against a boss that has to be boring by design because the rotation complexity is so high? Rotations are more enjoyable and diverse than ever before, they removed a lot of annoying busywork that encouraged installing third party addons so the players could focus less on the boss and more on their annoying rotations.

ever heard of a middle ground? it's possible. the game did it before. we called it Stormblood. job design does not even need to be more "complex", it just needs to instead focus on more engaging and individually unique mechanics for jobs rather than funnelling all of them into the same archetypes.

you want examples of homogeneity, though? look at the entire tank role buddy. paladin went from a sustained damage job that played entirely around its DoT while cycling through 2 different damage phases to a boring samey burst job that dumps all its big buttons into buffs, exactly like the other three tanks. no more MP management or Goring/Atonement optimization, just press your PLD flavoured Fell Cleave. what happened to that job is undeniably homogenization.

[Yuella]

I think the DPS are still unique enough to be fun. It's tanks and healers that are neutered. I love when WHM had cleric stance. You had to take a risk to dps. You had to choose whether you want to use the next Assize for healing or for dps. Tanks managing aggro is an essential part of MMORPGs. Choosing between dps combo or enmity combo stimulates the brain.

[Lyth]

Most of the issues in this thread relate back to the fact that the genre itself seems to be moving away from trinity-based role designs. If FFXIV was released for the first time today, you might not even have dedicated tanks and healers. You'd probably see more of an action MMO setup with players primarily managing their own health bars and a few 'support-orientated' dps for players who are really into that sort of thing.

Part of this just reflects how players have changed from 20 years ago. Progression isn't tied back to your community. You can find groups at your specific progression point with relative ease, and just jump into doing content on demand. As a result, we're less tolerant about waiting around for other people to work through their mistakes. Nobody wants to sit around and watch a so-called 'main tank' learn the pattern of cleaves on a fight or how to move a boss. You might want more intricate heal checks, but players aren't going to sit around and watch you learn how to manage your resources and figure out your timings in order to do so. Mechanic checks are more egalitarian. You're either at the prog point, or you're not and we silently disband. Your role choice doesn't matter.

The downside of course is that these roles still exist within FFXIV, but their function is essentially vestigial by this point. Tanks are simplified melee dps. Healers are simplified casters. This suits some people, because you have alternative roles that are less competitive and less demanding. But it's also deeply unsatisfying because supports just don't have the impact that draws people to play them in the first place. I don't really know what the solution is, short of giving tanks and healers more opportunities to set up their teammates to do more damage, either through boss positioning or unique support actions (like raidwide movement actions).

Homogenization is an unavoidable phenomenon and just reflects the fact that the community will always compare relative job performance. So there's naturally a convergent pressure to eliminate differences. This is more pronounced on tanks and healers because there's fewer of them, so the instant you add a unique or exciting action on one job, everyone else will be clamoring for its equivalent to be added on their jobs. There's this sort of arms race going on at the moment where tanks progressively add more and more redundant layers of defensives just to keep up with the competition. This is less of a problem for offensive actions because they just need to be numerically balanced.

[HikariKurosawa]

Watch what happens if you don't position properly, mitigate, or tank swap as a tank in raids. Watch what happens if you don't heal as a healer. The damage components of these roles have to be simple because their job is actually complex and if the damage component of it was the same as a dps job then every group would fail on top of tank and healer being dramatically more difficult roles than any dps.

This idea that we're moving away from the trinity is so unfounded it's just perplexing.

This idea that all tank roles play the same is so ridiculous it is just perplexing. Dots are not fun and I am glad square enix is moving away from them. Paladin should have an attack sequence as satisfying as fell cleave because that is satisfying. Dots are not. Tanks shouldn't be focusing on the busywork of keeping up dots, they should be focused on the role of tanking and they should be rewarded with simple rotations that have satisfying buttons like fell cleave. Gunbreaker has its own satisfying damage buttons, warrior has fell cleave, paladin has its new sword combo, dark knight has cool abilities too. They all feel extremely different yet satisfying in their own way. I think people just need to take a step back and look at the finer details rather than generalizing everything based on function alone. Form is the most important part of the fantasy, not function.

[Lyth]

I've spent an inordinate of time as a tank since ARR. I've witnessed these changes unfold to tanks in real time across about twelve raid tiers or so before realizing that it was futile trying to fight it. Mitigation and tank swaps are extremely trivial. If you don't know how to press a predetermined button at a fixed timestamp, you're not going to fare well on any role.

I'd like to believe that positioning and movement is the cornerstone of tanking, but that has been overshadowed by self-positioning bosses and wall bosses from around Stormblood onwards. The dev team doesn't trust the average tank to be able to position competently and consistently, and you can't blame them, judging from what happens when the opportunity does come up. We've tried to argue for a change to fight design for about 6 years now, but it's just not happening. The sooner you deal with it and move on, the happier you'll be.

I think one critical point that you're missing is that pass-fail checks don't really engage players across a range of skill levels. Tank swaps, mitigation, and healing are fundamentally pass-fail checks. There's a degree of self-selection at work. If you're joining parties for Savage content and up, you can take it for granted that supports participating in content do their primary functions as naturally as breathing, or else they don't do the content at all. It's the offensive toolkit that lets you differentiate yourself at the end of the day, and there's not all that much to work with if you're playing a support.