This is the biggest reason why Tanks and Healers are designed to be braindead easy.

[WaxSw]

If healers and tanks wanted to play DPS then they would play dps. Wanting to change the core of 8 classes instead of adjusting fights is absolutely brain dead.

What takes more effort? A major rework of 10 years of content or a rework of 4-8 jobs?

I love when people say that dpsing "is not their core" while ignoring that we used to have many more dpsing tools in the past (so it kinda was part of the core), many of the more iconic tools we had used to relate to dps or how dpsing is almost all we currently do at any difficulty. Every role is at least half dps in this game and it has been like that for at least over half a decade

[ty_taurus]

I have a serious question:

Why is it considered toxic for a DPS to pull adds, but not toxic for a tank to not use AoEs? Both are examples of not playing the game “the right way,” and both can cause a wipe, or at least make the run harder for everyone else, so what’s the difference?

[AnotherPerson]

I have a serious question:

Why is it considered toxic for a DPS to pull adds, but not toxic for a tank to not use AoEs? Both are examples of not playing the game “the right way,” and both can cause a wipe, or at least make the run harder for everyone else, so what’s the difference?

It's not really toxic to consider DPS to pull adds in expert roulette, but only seems that way to ... bad players actually. Both are originally considered toxic because it creates more things to consider on the healer's and tank's side. It's 100% toxic for a tank to not use AoEs. However, the former (DPS grabbing adds) actually benefits the party when done moderately due to how healers, tanks, DPS, and dungeons are designed while the latter is actually griefing behavior and cannot be justified in any way. Healers have ridiculous amounts of free healing in relation to casual dungeon content, including expert roulette. DPS benefit more from bigger pulls. Mobs do low damage and rarely do untelegraphed cleaves (and when they do, it's generally not lethal to a non-dps so healers have ample room to heal them up). Tanks and Healers both have more than the minimum amount of mitigation and sustain to get through a wall-to-wall trash pack safely. You'd see it more discouraged if it was more dangerous like in Stone Vigil (Lv 43, SCH+SGE no oGCDs, healing power limited) or Aurum Vale (Good ILVL Sync prevents Wall to wall pulls and no standardized invuln for all tanks at this level). However, that's just not the case by lv 90 in expert roulette. In reality, DPS actually can help more because they usually have their own personal self mitigation (SMN has radiant aegis x2, melee have arms length + whatever self sustain tool + bloodbath, ranged DPS have 10% party mit on top of extra utility, etc.). It's also because tanks can easily and instantly take aggro back due to how big the modifiers are on tank aggro generation, provided they actually use their AOE combo and not single target in wall to wall pulls.

Edit: A better example to see this difference would be to look at it in Criterion dungeon mobs vs regular dungeons. Yes, you'll die in criterion dungeons if you pull as a DPS. That's where mobs REALLY hurt and adheres more to the holy trinity model. In such a case, tanks should be pulling and DPS should not be running ahead because a DPS' self sustain and mitigation doesn't do the healer any favors when the damage they take per hit is still is exceedingly high on any role that isn't a tank and deaths are more punishing due to a limitation on raises. A DPS pulling here would be making things considerably more difficult rather than efficient as the healer have to focus more resources on spreading out their healing too -- therefore it's neither ideal and can be considered toxic mindset for DPS to pull ahead simply because it's not very beneficial in any way other than DPS might be doing slightly more damage -- a significant and risky tradeoff. On the other side, if you have a tank deciding to single target in Criterion? Well, I hope you're ready for a wipe and nothing other than wipe galore cause even if you end up pulling one pack, the other pack of mobs tied to the pack will definitely kill the rest of the party if tank doesn't maintain aggro.

[Banriikku]

Ohhh.... drama... nice.

My take on this:
Frist the the healer .... ??? Whats about him ???
Second the SMN, i agree with the take about lvl 90 is not beginner anymore for a Expert Roullette.
Third the SAM, that looks like has some personal problems and has a very bad take plus denial of reality.
The tank..... full stop... this is trolling or griefing. Done. No excuses. I would kick or leave but not play with him... yup i am that petty.

Maybe even report because AOE and aggro as a tank are baseline - no mental gymnastics can make this change. As if i play a dancer and said i just dance, in the literal way - just emoting and as a SMN i just call for the egi and stop there because i am summoning thats my job "hur dur" and as DRK i just sit in the corner and broode away and smsh some cringe one liner about revenge and me - alone against the world. This is a clownshow and we are sitting in the first row.

[Sebazy]

The healer had the best idea of staying out of this mush

[Calysto]

I mean, if the DPS only had a singe target attack and there was no adds, the problem would be solved, clearly it's a game design issue where these are too harsh for expert payers !

[Jojoya]

Look at this video. SPECIFICALLY, pause at around 20/21 seconds in. UP UNTIL THEN, the SMN had full health. Meaning UP UNTIL THEN, the Tank was holding agro. I'm not really accustomed to seeing FFLog video (didn't know it had that feature, but cool),

But the replay linked does clearly show the tank losing aggro at 10 seconds. The healer got aggro at 10 seconds then Mane got it at 17 seconds.

First for context, the replay is for the first trash pack on the bridge after the second boss. They only engaged the first pack on the bridge where most tanks would grab the second pack as well.

The tank did hold aggro on the Armor of Baron for about 6 seconds after gaining initial aggro at about 3.5 seconds. It does not look like he was close enough yet for any melee attack or Flood of Darkness (though that could be the replay not time-syncing correctly). Assuming the replay is accurate, my guess is that he either used Unmend with Grit turned off (if it was on, he should have held aggro on the Armor longer even if he didn't hit it a second time) or he used Abyssal Drain.

At 10 seconds, he seems to use Plunge - and immediately loses aggro on the Armor. That means he targeted something else for Plunge or he would have at least temporarily gotten aggro back. The Armor is now targeting the healer. The important part of the healer's health bar is cut off at the edge of the replay so I have no idea how much damage they might have taken but they got a good shield up after a couple of seconds. Everyone in the party has taken a fair amount of damage at this point when only the tank should be. The tank is not trying to hold aggro on the pack.

At 17 seconds, the Armor switches from the healer to Mane. The healer and SAM appear to stop taking any damage at this point. Mane's health starts to go steadily down after the last of the remaining shield is consumed and finally dies at 34 seconds.

The tank was taking some damage during all this time but they seemed to be using TBN just fine since there are several periods of HP remaining consistent. It looked like the only shields the tank was getting from the healer was from Eukrasia Prognosis or Holos as the rest of the party would get a shield at the same time.

I'm still of the opinion that there is plenty of blame to be spread around here, except for possibly the healer since they seemed to stay out of the dispute. All 3 of them got their hands dirty in one way or another. But Mane's the one that decided to turn it into public drama by tagging Xenos when he sent his message. And of course Edelgarde can have credit for bringing it up here with a clickbait title instead of being smart and ignoring it like most intelligent people would.

No, this situation has nothing to do with why SE makes job changes to tanks and healers.

[Ardeth]

Also, how empty does your life have to be like, "I'm going to make a giant scene out of nothing for clout." Streamers aside, what kind of world do these people live in? So you had a bad run. Everyone has them. Buckle up buttercup. The world is dangerous. If you get this bent out of shape over something, not even tangible, I'm horrified to see how you react to them messing your food up at a fast food restaurant. These people live on Neptune. I swear.

[BRVV]

These people live on Neptune. I swear.

No they live on Uranus

[Renathras]

I have a serious question:

Generally? Role and rate of push for content/comfort zone of players. Or to put it another way, the difference between making someone uncomfortable and merely inconveniencing someone GENERALLY.

The Tank's ultimately responsible for controlling all of the enemies on the field/drawing their agro, as well as using their abilities to survive the hits and prevent themselves from dying and the party from taking damage/wiping.

Meaning when they've pulled all they feel comfortable with and you pull more onto them, you're pushing them outside of their comfort zone. In life, it's generally considered rude to push people you don't know out of their comfort zone. It's like walking into someone's personal space, clearly making them uncomfortable, and standing there even when it's obvious you're doing so. Not to be too blunt, but it's something that people without...social difficulties?...learn not to do to other people by the time they get to be adults.

On the other hand, not using AOEs/doing wall-to-wall pulls/etc is GENERALLY (will get back to this) not making the DPS players uncomfortable/pushing them out of their comfort zone, it's just going slower, making the impatient feel inconvenienced. Now, I say GENERALLY, because most MMOs' single target rotations can be performed (or mostly performed) on DPSers. FFXIV has moved towards a lot of single-target things doing AOE damage now. This is a relatively new thing, though. For instance, in ShB, RDM's burst combo was single target only. Holy/Flare/Scorch became AOE in EW. SMN's Bahamut has always been AOE when it comes out, but it used to have a single target version in SB/ShB (Phoenix used both, however). But we're talking a general perception here.

There's also a part that the Tank may be considering the Healer (or an over-concern for the Healer), etc. Tanks watching Healer's MP bars before pulling more things has long been an MMO staple, again, until relatively recently in MMO history.

I'm not sure the best way to describe it other than "social graces"; it's the difference between making someone uncomfortable/making more work for something against their will and merely inconveniencing someone by going a little slower. Like the difference between standing up in someone's face that's clearly uncomfortable with it vs walking down a sidewalk slowly with the person behind you being annoyed you aren't going faster. One is rude, the other merely a natural inconvenience of dealing with other people in a social setting.

Again, as a general thing.

The proliferation of "single target is now AOE" changes the mechanics somewhat, but keep in mind this mindset is 20 years old at this point, and so predates that modern innovation.

.

I know it's not an answer that people may like, but to a serious question, that's the serious answer.

EDIT:

In super short, it comes from an older time in MMOs where mechanics were a bit different and people were generally more polite/social and less in a hurry/caught up with the hustle and bustle of modern life to the expense of social graces, so to speak.