Disruptive Frontline Gameplay

[Akimitsu]

From the perspective of "a FL veteran" it's difficult to fully take a stance on the DRK/DRG/AST situation. I feel like the issue is coming from elsewhere to be honest, and I say that fully aknowledging that I sometimes still get killed by those premades.
The fact that FL draws in so many clueless people who are just here for their quick XP, the general western mentality about doing minimal (mental) effort is a bigger issue imo.
Try to follow a premade in your alliance if you spot one, and coordinate your efforts with mass killing on DRK pulls and see if you still find it that bad/unfun, and if it works do wonder why it's working (answer: because the people you're killing are just clueless).

An issue I would definitely agree with is the overabundance of CC and absence of CC resist: getting double polymorphed, triple pulled backwards, DNC charmed then MNK LB without the possibility to do anything about it, etc. Guard should never be able to be broken by anything, and it should prevent absurd one shot mechanics that take no skill to achieve (SAM). RPR and DNC forcing the DRK pulls to work everytime IS an issue unlike the pulls themselves. Guard should probably also be reworked to activate when pressed and not years later after all enemy damage has registered...

Regarding Battle High I really don't understand why people want that gone, for anyone who enjoys FL it's an additional reason to play, to get stronger and be able to do more for your team (or just for your own pride!). FL without BH would be so horribly flat...

[KenZentra]

Fights should be interesting, somewhat close, just using the best exploit available is the typical western mentality, where as respect for the players you are with as well as the opponents is an entire different story.

So instead of trying to cooperate with someone who is making an effort to coordinate things, you make an effort to sabotage the game because you're a special snowflake. Speak for yourself when you say stuff like it gets on everyone's nerves, you are everything that's wrong with western mentality.

The fact that FL draws in so many clueless people who are just here for their quick XP, the general western mentality about doing minimal (mental) effort is a bigger issue imo.

Oh my god, you two talk like THOSE relatives at Thanksgiving dinners. Please get over whatever culture thing you guys have a hookup on, it really has no place in this conversation.

[Akimitsu]

You literally came here to nitpick sentences from 2 people who are absolutely discussing the topic at hand. Maybe your comment has no place in this conversation? A troll from Goblin, the irony...

Only someone like you would deny the fact that yes, culture does play a part in how we play, while the eastern one tends to focus on coordination and not being a burden for the rest of the people they play with, the western one (for the majority) couldn't give a rat's ass about what they do and how they do it as long as they get their reward. And since they don't care to get better or offer constructive criticism we get this kind of thread, and despite what people may think SE does listen sometimes and then we get reworks that are failures after failures.
I also sincerely hope people realize that, at the moment, baring the intervention of the third GC, the DRK/AST/DRG thing is one of the only sure ways to make a comeback from impending defeats.

[Mawlzy]

You literally came here to nitpick sentences from 2 people who are absolutely discussing the topic at hand. Maybe your comment has no place in this conversation? A troll from Goblin, the irony...

Only someone like you would deny the fact that yes, culture does play a part in how we play, while the eastern one tends to focus on coordination and not being a burden for the rest of the people they play with, the western one (for the majority) couldn't give a rat's ass about what they do and how they do it as long as they get their reward. And since they don't care to get better or offer constructive criticism we get this kind of thread, and despite what people may think SE does listen sometimes and then we get reworks that are failures after failures.
I also sincerely hope people realize that, at the moment, baring the intervention of the third GC, the DRK/AST/DRG thing is one of the only sure ways to make a comeback from impending defeats.

That's one helluva sweeping statement made without evidence. Is there a sub-population of FL players who turn up once a day for XP? Yeah probably. The same is true in every roulette mode. Is this more common on NA servers? Possibly. But the natural instinct of any gamer is to try to play well and win in whatever mode they're playing!

I'd suggest the issues arise when individuals feel they have very little agency in impacting the result. Part of that is inevitable in a 24v24v24 outside of being a competent shot caller. It is compounded massively by this bizarre situation of mixing solo queueing with premades. The last Shatter I played yesterday began with the chat: "Oh well. We lost." "Yup!" when those players noticed the shot-caller with the effective premade was not on our team. I recognize this can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, but equally all those who cared enough to check the end-of-match stats could hardly avoid the laughable K/D/A of the same four suspects over and over again.

You don't encourage people to try harder by making their efforts irrelevant to the outcome of a contest.

[Akimitsu]

without evidence

Go play some FL (or any content) on a JP DC and come back. I'm not saying they are inherently better, they just try more.

But the natural instinct of any gamer is to try to play well and win in whatever mode they're playing![...]But the natural instinct of any gamer is to try to play well and win in whatever mode they're playing!

Do we play the same game? The number of times I have to tell DNCs to use dancer partner, useless BRDs and SMNs who never use paean or egi shield on anything but themselves (if even that), the multitude of PLDs who never use guardian, the DRKs who use salted earth to pull 1 enemy tank, the DRGs who use their LB to try to kill a single target etc etc... And how about the assist/damage/healing scores at the end of the games being a clear indicator of how poorly the vast majority plays? I can forgive the first timers but most players have already done FL more than once and still barely perform at an average level...
ANd the difference between a pvp and pve roulette is that there's nothing competitive about a pve roulette... I do expect ALL people to actually try when I play pvp.

snip

Funny you'd come with this comment after saying SAM LB isn't an issue in another thread. Because yeah, just guard or just run away is definitely something you can do to counter DRK/AST/DRG -unless some DNC/RPR is added to the mix-. Why don't you play SAM if these comps bother you so much by the way? And idk what possible fun you're talking about when speaking of Shatter, if anything, what that team you're speaking of did to win sounds a lot more exciting than hitting ice dummies for 15 mins.

[Doozer]

Funny you'd come with this comment after saying SAM LB isn't an issue in another thread. Because yeah, just guard or just run away is definitely something you can do to counter DRK/AST/DRG -unless some DNC/RPR is added to the mix-. Why don't you play SAM if these comps bother you so much by the way? And idk what possible fun you're talking about when speaking of Shatter, if anything, what that team you're speaking of did to win sounds a lot more exciting than hitting ice dummies for 15 mins.

I think it's funnier that you're so chronically on these forums that you can recall a post I made in a different thread days ago.

It's also funny because SAM and NIN LB are not a problem, nor are DRK or AST. On their own. Maybe instead of "snip" you actually include the part you quoted and then ignored. Do you really need me to explain the difference to you? Or are you just going to ignore everything I thoughtfully typed out to drone on about western entitlement again?

For anyone else who stumbles upon this and needs clarification, "just guard" or "just run away" from 1/3 of a team is a good way to lose. Unfortunately, trying to push said team when you can die in one frame is also a good way to lose. Guard has a 30 second cooldown and can only be active for a maximum of 5 seconds. That means for 25 seconds you are unprotected. Should you just run away from the DRK/AST/AST/AST/AST/AST/AST until Guard is back up, run in, and Guard again? Not a very effective strategy, unless you want to do slightly more than AFK. I played a match yesterday on Onsal Hakair (so, not Shatter) that had one of these comps again (comprising of at least a few of the same people from the Shatter match) and while I managed to live (as BRD) and never get killed by their barrage, my team got decimated over and over and it was difficult to make any progress. Even though I survived their attacks it was only barely, with lucky timed Recuperate in between hits most of the time. Thankfully we managed to prevent them from winning, but we also didn't win ourselves. Should I have used Guard more? Would that have made us win? Should I have told my team "just run away lol" and that would've secured the victory for us?

If you can believe it, the approach to one problem (NIN/SAM) is not the same as the approach to another problem (DRK/AST/AST/AST/AST/AST/AST).

I hope someone and maybe even you (long shot) understand my point a bit better after this explanation.

Enjoy the rest of your time on the forums.

[Akimitsu]

Guard has a 30 second cooldown and can only be active for a maximum of 5 seconds. That means for 25 seconds you are unprotected

Guess what's on a 30 seconds cooldown too? Also your excuses about "should I have done this or that" have a simple solution: mark the enemy DRK, and if you actually care, make warning macros, and since you play BRD, silence the DRK. The DRK is just there to facilitate things for the ASTs, with a cooldown that they'd all be willing to follow, 6-7 ASTs can atomize an enemy GC with just macrocosmos (not the tanks and melees at first but with some BH it's doable) and they don't need a DRK for that.
God forbid some people are actually trying to coordinate things and stop wasting time with the XP farmer hordes. Sure it's not ideal to be against the premades but at some point they'll be on your team, or you can just try and lead to make a difference.

Also you playing BRD gives me an answer as to why you'd think SAM LB isn't an issue in FL...

[Mawlzy]

Do we play the same game? The number of times I have to tell DNCs to use dancer partner, useless BRDs and SMNs who never use paean or egi shield on anything but themselves (if even that), the multitude of PLDs who never use guardian, the DRKs who use salted earth to pull 1 enemy tank, the DRGs who use their LB to try to kill a single target etc etc... And how about the assist/damage/healing scores at the end of the games being a clear indicator of how poorly the vast majority plays? I can forgive the first timers but most players have already done FL more than once and still barely perform at an average level...
ANd the difference between a pvp and pve roulette is that there's nothing competitive about a pve roulette... I do expect ALL people to actually try when I play pvp.

I too would like everyone to try when I play PvP. My main point is that, in the face of highly-oppressive premades, there is a subset of players who have decided there is no point in trying, since whatever they do has no impact on the result. I think we have to address the cause, not the symptoms, whether that cause be poor balance, or the stupidity of mixing solo queueing with party queueing.

As to the differences between JP/NA, sure I've heard enough anecdotal evidence to suggest the quality of play is higher on JP servers and includes interesting tactics such as clustering/hiding. I just am skeptical this reflects some cultural societal difference outside of FF14. For example, on NA servers the bone dragon (?) gets pulled further north than on JP servers. One could attribute that to the influence of feng shui, I suppose, but I suspect it's just just how common behavior converges within a community.