FFXIV Discussion thread on healers having tank-like DPS kits

[Renathras]

No idea, however I would have thought that "hansom and wise" wouldn't have put that much weight on that post in any case given https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6378444, also as Sebazy points out half the time downvotes are used for all kinds of reasons. Most people don't dwell on them

And yet, in the most recent discussion we've had on the topic, YOU were the one that went straight to vote count to determine popularity. Should I take a page from your book and start posting links?

And we've also had conversations here where people DID ask for healers to have damage rotations on par with tanks, where people have insisted we cannot increase healing complexity because of legacy content and novice healers, etc. These arguments are the same, the differences are superficial "well ackshually"s to try and distance the prevailing opinion here from one being opposed there.

The point is, people, who are not Ren Thras, are saying that they don't want greater damage complexity on healers. People are saying they want greater healing complexity, and people are saying even if they don't get that, they don't want greater damage complexity. And the position seems popular and accepted by quite a few people, not just the lone voice of Ren Thras, proving once and for all that he is NOT actually isolated in his view and that it does represent that of a swath of the playerbase. More than enough to justify listening to it and ensuring at least one healer Job is tailored to those people.

EDIT:

God, I don't want to fight you or make you look stupid, so all I'm going to do is drop this link, and bold the thing you said that you now decry when it is working against you: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6372823

You have a interesting way of evaluating "happiness"

Check out the highest voted post. at 111 up-votes, it out-weighs all of what I would consider as clearly positive vote (e.g. I love sage, sage is 10/10, buttery smooth)

"Sage feels like it should have a more robust DPS kit and a different function for kardia. I don't really feel the job's core idea much at all - it heals when I DPS but my DPS kit is extremely limited and I'm always DPSing so it just feels like a regen in practice. There's no DPS move I have to save or think about, I just pop them off cool down

It's stylish though. Haima and snap shielding are fun and having to activate eukrasia tickle my brain."

When I look at this one, it doesn't come off as "happy". I can also find others which are more negative in tone.

Agreed, there are also positive ones , looking at them quickly I found three that totalled up to about 75.

So a quick review would tell me that it's not so much a "so many people are happy" but that it's a mixed bag. Yes, some people do like Sage, and some really like Sage, but a significant amount, possibly a majority, have issues with Sage. It's not what they expected, they may like some aspects, however they want to changes.

You'll try to weasel out of it again, so I'm not going to hold your feet to the fire or bicker with you back and forth nor rebut your excuses again. But you clearly counted upvotes and were using those as an argument when it supported your position, and you reject them when they support the position opposing to you. That's called having a double standard, and is blatant in your case. Say what defense or excuses you want, make the excuse that I do it too, whatever; you did it, and now you say it's a bad thing to do.

For my part, I don't think it's a great metric, and have been up front about that in the past and here as well, but since YOU used it before, I applied it here. Suddenly, it's a bad metric? Great, we agree.

...but then, that wasn't the crux of my point. Meaning it's actually irrelevant.

MY point wasn't "it's popular" or "it's the dominant position" or "it's what the majority want".

My point was only that it's more than just me all alone, and it's significant enough that we who hold it, collectively, make a large enough minority we deserve at least one healer Job suited to us. That was the argument I was presenting, and it has been established by the evidence. Well, what we have to count as evidence, anyway. As I pointed out with Ty's surveys, there are significant numbers of people NOT asking for more DPS actions nor complexity on the various healer Jobs (AST in particular, but all of them to some extent), and WHM is split 50/50 between "no change / minor rework" vs "major rework / total rework", and for SGE, those two added together are the majority position 54/46.

Clearly, there is a significant portion of the playerbase active on forums and these surveys, which does not want more DPS actions/complexity on healer Jobs. This should be more than enough to justify one being tailored to them instead of to you, especially if you get 2 or even 3 of the others.

[IDontPetLalas]

And yet, in the most recent discussion we've had on the topic, YOU were the one that went straight to vote count to determine popularity. Should I take a page from your book and start posting links?

And we've also had conversations here where people DID ask for healers to have damage rotations on par with tanks, where people have insisted we cannot increase healing complexity because of legacy content and novice healers, etc. These arguments are the same, the differences are superficial "well ackshually"s to try and distance the prevailing opinion here from one being opposed there.

The point is, people, who are not Ren Thras, are saying that they don't want greater damage complexity on healers. People are saying they want greater healing complexity, and people are saying even if they don't get that, they don't want greater damage complexity. And the position seems popular and accepted by quite a few people, not just the lone voice of Ren Thras, proving once and for all that he is NOT actually isolated in his view and that it does represent that of a swath of the playerbase. More than enough to justify listening to it and ensuring at least one healer Job is tailored to those people.

No, I didn't go "straight to vote count', if you weren't so vested in one upmanship, you might focussed with more clarity on my prior comment, and I will repeat it again- that it is hardly surprising that some people don't want a tank rotation applied to healers, amongst literally millions of people playing FFXIV, some people will disagree, and some people have already said so in the forums - exactly in the prior discussions that you just referred to.

Once again, you ignore that the rest of us do not lack the capacity to read, interpret, deduct and analyze - and from that we may or may not agree with future healer changes.

Here's an imaginary scenario (bear with me, I realize details are left out) : for the sake of argument - 20 % of current healers are absolutely counter to any changes, and Square decided, let's go with a Dancer-like change to add 2 new proc skills for DPS starting from level 50- what do you imagine would happen? Would you quit? Do you you think that the 20% of the those healers would quit in disgust, or because they're now a "DPS", even if otherwise the job doesn't change - or if you bring up hotbar space- let's say Repose is tossed?