Dawntrail Healers need a rework

[IDontPetLalas]

The only time I've seen the DPS jobs mentioned is when people say WHM should take from BLM, although I've never seen people say WHM should become BLM with healing spells, mostly people say that WHM could learn from the proc system that BLM has.

Good point, I would say that's come up, and I've never had the impression in that context that WHM would in any way infringe a BLM, in fact it seemed to be a very natural comparison to many people as both jobs are "classic" casters.

[Renathras]

Also, saying 'Chain buffs SCH's damage too, so you can think of it like DWT or IR' and then not saying the same for SMN's raidbuff, Searing Light, is very strange behaviour.

Not going to comment on the rest other than this piece: I counted both. So I DID say the same for Searing Light:

"SMN today has Ruin 3, Ruin 4, ... Energy Drain, Fester, Searing Light,..."

And don't mix analogies. You didn't mention speed limits. You only said "not everyone's happy with a Prius, shouldn't we build other cars?" To which I would agree...but we should ALSO keep building Priuses since some people like those as well. Trying to move the goalposts in the middle of an analogy breaks the analogy. The 4 Healers Model parallel is we went from only making Priuses into making Priuses, Mustangs, F150s, and Vipers. They can all go the same speed, that's irrelevant to the analogy.

Oh, and on AST: The Cards are BORING now, but you get them (in terms of Draw CD) at the same rate, right? They're just boring, you have the one Redraw per Draw limit, and you don't have the "burn for additional effects" mechanic? Of course, they're doing an AST rework, so who the heck knows what they'll look like 8 months from now...

I mean for my part, no, not really. There's not enough space to have a full DPS Role level rotation on a healer because they need to dedicate a fair chunk of their hotbar to healing. That's kind of the point of healers. It would feel way too cluttered. I wouldn't be complaining about it on the forums, like what Roe said, but I have never asked for, nor am I looking for a completely established caster DPS that also has all of a healer's kit. It's why I reference the tanks as being a comparison point rather than the caster DPS, even though I think the actual DPS gameplay would feel closer to the caster DPS roles in terms of how the different attacks flow together, or at least a caster DPS lite.

Didn't you argue with me before that Healers could easily add more hotbar spots because (especially WHM and SGE) they have room? (I'm not accusing you, I just don't remember who all made that argument). Regardless, the bar is pretty moveable. As I counted above, SMN has 16 and SB SCH had something like 10-12?, so it wouldn't be a far cry to add 4 more at that point. Likewise, if SGE's mechanic was changed to mostly healing through Kardia and (in emergencies) Prognosis/Diagnosis, then wouldn't it have room for a full DPS rotation?

Ironically, SMN may have less damage buttons than several of the Tanks do, meaning Tank rotations are actually more buttons than (at least one) DPS Job's, so technically "more than a DPS".

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In any case, we're pretty far off into the weeds now.

Agreed, I can't think of anyone that has asked for, nor even implied , that they would want a full DPS rotation, not even for SGE, where I would expect that to crop up. As you say, the sweet spot is closer to what tanks have.

See above: By some counts, Tanks have more than (at least one) DPS Job.

The only time I've seen the DPS jobs mentioned is when people say WHM should take from BLM, although I've never seen people say WHM should become BLM with healing spells, mostly people say that WHM could learn from the proc system that BLM has.

Also see above. Though to be fair here, "Thundercloud procs" and "Astral/Umbral phases" have been suggested at various points.

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...though now I'm curious what the DPS ability spread and average is for DPS Jobs, Tanks, Healers respectively and individually...hm. Another time.

[TheDustyOne]

I've said before and I'll say again: I'm pretty sure I've gotten worse at DOT timer refreshing since SHB removed all the DOTs. The supposed 'change to make it easier to manage DOTs' (by packaging them all into one) has actually done the opposite for me, and made it harder for me to remember to check if they need refreshing. Because between each DOT refresh now is ELEVEN other GCDs.

Same honestly, I also hate the change to BRD DoTs and songs being 45s because of it. I'm now spamming Burst Shot more times than Glare, only being broken up by the Refulgent proc.

I don't think I want BLM-on-WHM.

I must now finish my meme theorycraft, it will be glorious.

[ForsakenRoe]

Not going to comment on the rest other than this piece: I counted both. So I DID say the same for Searing Light:

And don't mix analogies. You didn't mention speed limits. You only said "not everyone's happy with a Prius, shouldn't we build other cars?" To which I would agree...but we should ALSO keep building Priuses since some people like those as well. Trying to move the goalposts in the middle of an analogy breaks the analogy. The 4 Healers Model parallel is we went from only making Priuses into making Priuses, Mustangs, F150s, and Vipers. They can all go the same speed, that's irrelevant to the analogy.

Oh, and on AST: The Cards are BORING now, but you get them (in terms of Draw CD) at the same rate, right? They're just boring, you have the one Redraw per Draw limit, and you don't have the "burn for additional effects" mechanic? Of course, they're doing an AST rework, so who the heck knows what they'll look like 8 months from now...

You counted both, but did not mention why you counted Searing Light. If I had to guess with only reading the lists, it'd be because 'its a button used while doing the damage rotation'. But then Chain Strat has this weird note attached. Nobody thinks of it as SCH's IR. It does not give access to a burst ability, it's just a raidbuff. Searing Light does not give access to a burst ability, it's just a raidbuff. I don't understand why you feel the need to append 'use cases' to things that do not have them

I'm so glad we have you around to tell us what we mean by our analogies, since we apparently don't. Others seemed to understand what I meant by what I said

The cards in SB were 'used' more frequently. While we get them at the same rate from Draw (30s), We also had a 2min window in Sleeve Draw, which gave a RR effect to react to, a Spread card, a Drawn card, and a Minor Arcana card. Redraw had three charges. So where we now play 6 cards in 2 minutes (4 Draws, 2 MA), back then we'd use 7 (4 Draws, a Draw, a Spread, a MA). You'd interact with the cards a lot more often though, more OGCD time was dedicated to them. With AOE Balance being what it is, and access to up to three Redraws, you'd spend a lot more time Redrawing to get a Ewer/Spire, and a lot more again to find a Balance once you had the AOE RR set up

[TheDustyOne]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the charge system introduced in ShB? I don't remember Redraw having charges back in SB.

[ForsakenRoe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the charge system introduced in ShB? I don't remember Redraw having charges back in SB.

So it was. My bad

[ty_taurus]

Didn't you argue with me before that Healers could easily add more hotbar spots because (especially WHM and SGE) they have room? (I'm not accusing you, I just don't remember who all made that argument). Regardless, the bar is pretty moveable. As I counted above, SMN has 16 and SB SCH had something like 10-12?, so it wouldn't be a far cry to add 4 more at that point. Likewise, if SGE's mechanic was changed to mostly healing through Kardia and (in emergencies) Prognosis/Diagnosis, then wouldn't it have room for a full DPS rotation?

Ironically, SMN may have less damage buttons than several of the Tanks do, meaning Tank rotations are actually more buttons than (at least one) DPS Job's, so technically "more than a DPS".

No, I didn’t argue that point, at least not in that way. I mean white mage and sage have room for a few more buttons probably, but certainly not enough room to have a full DPS kit next to their existing healing kits. What I have said is that we can debloat the healing kits and use that added room to have a soft set of DPS tools. I mean, you saw my more recent ideas for Sage and how it just had 18 buttons total between healing and DPS. That’s what I want, something more evenly balanced between healing and DPS actions.

[IDontPetLalas]

No, I didn’t argue that point, at least not in that way. I mean white mage and sage have room for a few more buttons probably, but certainly not enough room to have a full DPS kit next to their existing healing kits. What I have said is that we can debloat the healing kits and use that added room to have a soft set of DPS tools. I mean, you saw my more recent ideas for Sage and how it just had 18 buttons total between healing and DPS. That’s what I want, something more evenly balanced between healing and DPS actions.

Is it just me, or it starting to feel like Groundhog Day to anyone? Haven't we been over this a few times ?

[ty_taurus]

Is it just me, or it starting to feel like Groundhog Day to anyone? Haven't we been over this a few times ?

Isn’t that the fate of the healer forums? Beat a dead horse, run around that topic for a couple weeks, then move on to the next dead horse in an endless loop?

[Renathras]

You counted both, but did not mention why you counted Searing Light. If I had to guess with only reading the lists, it'd be because 'its a button used while doing the damage rotation'. But then Chain Strat has this weird note attached. Nobody thinks of it as SCH's IR. It does not give access to a burst ability, it's just a raidbuff. Searing Light does not give access to a burst ability, it's just a raidbuff. I don't understand why you feel the need to append 'use cases' to things that do not have them

And...how is this relevant? Either they both count or they don't, and if they both do OR both don't, it doesn't change the relative difference between the two. So it's no distinction other than you're looking for something to be disagreeable over, as shown by your following, heckling line which I will ignore. Suffice to say: There was no slight of hand. I specified the first because I thought some people might go "it's a raid buff, not a DPS button" (despite being directly used to increased DPS) and I didn't think, after saying that, anyone would be demanding I not count Searing Light, since folks from your side of the argument are benefited by counting more SMN abilities, not less, as far as your argument goes. I didn't think I needed to specify with Searing Light since I didn't think anyone would argue against their own position...

Redraw had 3 charges but still a CD, right? Meaning you could burn them all at once but then not have any for a while. While that creates flexibility, normalized over time it's not more uses, is it? That is, you had the same rate of Redraw generation as now (normalized over time), it just could be stacked/used several at once vs the current "one per Draw"? Is that correct? And you're saying that we hold Cards for burst means we use them less despite using them the same amount...when this is the opposite of Redraw in that you can choose to use them all at once or to space them out. The two arguments are in conflict with each other... In any cases, "a Draw, a Spread" vs "+1 MA", that was the trade off, then? Reasonable to be upset by that considering MA kinda sucks. The irony is, I felt (when I picked up AST in ShB) that MA then actually seemed to matter a bit more since it could be used to get the seals you need without upsetting your current balance, though I'm not sure if optimizing that was something people enjoyed (hence the change to seals just being for Astrodyne instead...) Though what I think is more important is the different types of interactions. The burn/boosted effect and the distinct effects meant more to engage with, yes? That is, more to consider and think about.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the charge system introduced in ShB? I don't remember Redraw having charges back in SB.

....

Oh, well okay then.

So it was. My bad

Fair enough. It happens. I appreciate the honest good faith effort at an answer.

Though can you explain the burn system? That was before I played AST. Other than just knowing it exists, I'm not sure the HOW of it other than AST had something like 8-10 abilities that were just about Card play (including Minor Arcana stuffs), and even discounting stuff like Undraw, there seemed to be more going on. Wasn't there something where the cards you burned had different effects on the next card played? Or was the effect always the same, depending on the card? That is, was it "Burn Ewer, next card is AOE" or was it "Burn Card, next Balance is AOE, next Spire has 2x the duration, etc"?

No, I didn’t argue that point, at least not in that way. I mean white mage and sage have room for a few more buttons probably, but certainly not enough room to have a full DPS kit next to their existing healing kits. What I have said is that we can debloat the healing kits and use that added room to have a soft set of DPS tools. I mean, you saw my more recent ideas for Sage and how it just had 18 buttons total between healing and DPS. That’s what I want, something more evenly balanced between healing and DPS actions.

Yeah, I was honestly impressed by that SGE idea.