How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Conchoidal]

-snip-

Okay, comparing something like PotD – an instance where you can "level" from 0-60 in an hour or less – to the normal levelling experience is pointless.

[Renathras]

You're not wrong. I was just saying...

Fair enough.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that no two Jobs will ever be identical. SGE and SCH are probably the closest in the game (in terms of damage), but Pneuma/Plegma/Toxicon and Ruin2/Energy Drain are still not the same. Or of one prefers WHM/AST, Dia and Combust are different, Gravity and Holy are different, Earthly Star and Assize are different, and PoM and...what, Astrodyne?...are different, and Lilybell does no damage and isn't on the GCD. When people are saying comparable to, they don't mean an exact copy of (so I've been told).

Honestly, I'm not sure a lot of people ARE asking for additions to WAR. I mean, when you give them a multiple choice survey, they might pick something (unless there's a "none" option), but in general, most post on the Tank forum asking for changes to the Tanks are DRKs complaining about the state of DRK, and occasionally some (mostly content) GNBs asking for No Mercy to be extended so their burst fits properly. I don't see a lot of WARs posting they need anything at all, much less needing/wanting a DPS button. Right now, I actually don't see ANY threads in there asking for things about WAR other than one (I posted) asking if WAR or PLD was the easiest tank now. Aside from DRK complaints and a few PLD discussions after the 6.3 rework, most Tank threads are about a more general desire of people to have tank mechanics back, like boss positioning, threat, etc (and some people opposing those things).

Most of the WAR mentions are from DRKs complaining WAR is DRK but better in every way. I don't actually see any threads of WARs asking for "a little something extra"...do you? Maybe I just missed them somewhere. Again, when prodded for a survey (that doesn't have a "everything is fine" option), people will pick SOMEthing, but WARs aren't going out of their way asking for things right now as far as I can tell. Outside of a general desire for more tanking mechanics, that is.

Okay, comparing something like PotD – an instance where you can "level" from 0-60 in an hour or less – to the normal levelling experience is pointless.

Why would you ask a question if you're going to ignore the answer?

Did you read past the first line in my post where I talked about leveling dungeons, MSQ, etc? Apparently. Why bother asking a question if you're going to ignore the answer given and instead substitute it with a strawman of your own invention?

...

You know, it's funny, I don't bring up other people's various histories, generally because it's a combination of being a jerk, ad hominem/canard distractions, and/or you getting it wrong when one does so. For all the effort you guys go through, you still don't get a couple of those right - though I won't debunk you yet again here - and I'm trying to remember ever saying WHM in 6.0 was fine in terms of MP when I was constantly complaining about it because of how AST was an MP god at that time and WHM's GCDs all felt overcosted in terms of MP.

I'll have to find some old threads from then to see exactly what I said, but either you made that up or you have one HELL of a grudge against me to go digging that far back to find something to try to bust me over - or worse - to have remembered it all this time and been waiting for an opportunity to drop it.

But hey, I guess if you can't beat a person's arguments, you have to ad hominem and strawman, amirite? If you clearly aren't capable of defeating someone's arguments, you have no other choice, after all, then being a petty little man. Well, other than NOT doing that.

If all you have are snide comments - many of which aren't even right to begin with - then you should just stay out of the discussion, since clearly you can't add anything related to the topic itself.

My kingdom for a good faith discussion...

[Sebazy]

Just like those res casts, no sliding in allowed guys.

Also:

Did you read past the first line in my post where I talked about leveling dungeons, MSQ, etc? Apparently. Why bother asking a question if you're going to ignore the answer given and instead substitute it with a strawman of your own invention?

Doesn't this fall foul of rule number 4 sir?

[Saraide]

My kingdom for a good faith discussion...

You say this but then you also post the wesk alber thread. I feel like you are not actually in for a good faith discussion.

[Aravell]

Can we not turn this thread into another "Renathras vs The World" thread? That would be great, thanks. We had a pretty decent discussion going before all this happened.

Anyway,

People not wanting damage rotations aren't opposed to balancing healing and damage - we do that right now.

You missed the entire point of my post, I'll just say that.

Also, your "4 Healers Model(TM)" doesn't appeal to me in the slightest because it doesn't give me back what I loved about healers back in HW/SB, so don't bother pitching it to me.

[Doragan]

About the main topic, I would say less emphasis on Glare/Broil/etc and more on dots or attacks with multiple timers, debuffs or buffs, and other systems.
You know it already, I beat those horses to the great beyond already, but animations are important as well. I loved playing WHM and seeing Stone IV. It was satisfying to use because it was impactful. Glare is bombastically bland in comparison. Sure, it doesn't make the spam magically go away, but it was something that I enjoyed about it. It didn't feel as bad as it does right now, because of it.
Aero III animation was very satisfying as well. It was more than just Holy spam when used on packs.
I remember enjoying a good lot of engagement when I used Virus and/or Disable on bosses during HW. I could silence that damn octopus in o7s with SCH. The pet bar was here. It was great.

To put it bluntly, less Glare, more anything else that does damage, with impactful animations. Maybe alternating buttons like a regular 123? Combo wouldn't be interupted by healing spells or something? That would be cool I feel.

Can we not turn this thread into another "Renathras vs The World" thread? That would be great, thanks. We had a pretty decent discussion going before all this happened.

Time is a flat circle. Kinda like those wavy fries at mcdonalds, i guess.

[Eisi]

Renathras is clearly in a position of power here, since the game already caters to him, all four healers are designed for him to enjoy. His four healers model is actually him offering an olive branch to the disenfranchised, underrepresented and at the moment completely powerless healers who desire more fun means of optimization and who apparently have no idea what position they really occupy right now, acting up and pretending to be able to make demands. If I were you I would take Ren's offer, since SE is only going to change anything about the state of healers if the community is perceived to have reached a consensus.

I would consider a future in which WHM can reach optimum output with 1/10th of the effort other healers have to put in to be a massive W to the healer community.

Sincerely,

an Optimal Drift Monk who is in favor of Dragon Kick Rota



Oh wait, thinking of it, Renathras, what if WHM (and all the healers really) had a Dragon Kick rota equivalent where you can just brainlessly spam 1 button and have like 97% the same dmg output as someone who balances about 3 buttons, but at least WHM players who would like to optimize would get something too, would that be a cool compromise? Cause I think they would take it. I certainly take it as a Monk, I love Optimal Drift but I'm glad Dragonkick Rota exists - as long as the more involved gameplay option is still worth it and still actually a thing I'm all in favor of braindead alternative playstyles for those who hate optimization and still wanna put out (almost) optimal amounts of damage like you. I also understand it if you don't want this though - 3% is still a difference that keeps you from being at the absolute tippy top without having to exert yourself using the more involved alternative and if you care about playing 100% optimally without having to interact much with your job then, well, that's what current healer design caters to, so it'd be a loss for you for sure. Even if just a 3% loss.

[ty_taurus]

Fair enough.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that no two Jobs will ever be identical. SGE and SCH are probably the closest in the game (in terms of damage), but Pneuma/Plegma/Toxicon and Ruin2/Energy Drain are still not the same. Or of one prefers WHM/AST, Dia and Combust are different, Gravity and Holy are different, Earthly Star and Assize are different, and PoM and...what, Astrodyne?...are different, and Lilybell does no damage and isn't on the GCD. When people are saying comparable to, they don't mean an exact copy of (so I've been told).

On the part about not wanting an exact copy, yes. If someone genuinely wanted a job like White Mage to play exactly like another job, such as Warrior, or Black Mage, or whatever, then they would say "Just give White Mage X job's rotation." Saying "I want White Mage to be more like x job" can be interpreted as more like it literally, which to be fair can be confusing, particularly for someone new looking in on the conversation, but other ways that sentiment has been said is also something like "comparable to" or "feel like" in regards to the general level of complexity. Generally speaking, at least when I make those statements, I believe I also expand upon what I mean in the rest of the post more often than not. Because this is a conversation that has gone on for a long time, though, there are also times where I might be referencing it from a past conversation and not fully explaining it, which does get weird in a forum environment because not everyone is a part of every conversation, or even remembers past conversations.

The example I shared earlier was a more literal copy, but that was to help reflect the part of Warrior's complexity that White Mage lacks. You could do plenty of different things to replace that singular concept, but my point was ultimately that there is a hole in White Mage's DPS gameplay that prevents it from being on Warrior's level, because Afflatus Solace and Rapture are not comparable to Fell Cleave both in use-cases and even in use volume, and there is no sense of gradual generation of resources that you can play around with regarding certain cooldowns. Warrior can disable the cost of Fell Cleave, and can generate more resources for Fell Cleave with external actions. White Mage cannot do that. My example is directly reflecting the part of Warrior's kit it doesn't have to point that out, but it's not a request of mine, and as I've said before, I think Paladin is a better tank for White Mage to take inspiration from than Warrior.

In regards to Scholar and Sage, I'm reminded a lot of the whole Super Smash Bros Captain Falcon/Ganondorf situation. Super Smash Bros Melee introduced several characters that nowerdays would be referred to as "semi-clones" where a new character seems to reuse many of the same animations and abilities from an existing character, but their moves have different properties, so while they're not exactly the same, the feel very similiar, especially at a casual level. One such example is the main villain of Legend of Zelda, Ganondorf, who is a semi-clone of Captain Falcon, a character from a sci-fi racing game. This is something that has historically been criticized by Smash players, and is something fans of Ganondorf have always been upset with to some degree. Over time, they have made small adjustments that have edged Ganondorf further away from Captain Falcon, but they still operate on many of the same core elements even today in Smash Ultimate.

Here's a comparison from Melee.
Here's a comparison from Ultimate.

It feels like the most probably outcome for Sage will be how this change has developed for Ganondorf, slowly getting a few more elements unique to it, but overall feeling like the same skeleton of a job for years to come.

[TheDustyOne]

The main reason I tend to compare WHM and WAR is down to the idea that people are fine with WHM being the simple, easy to learn healer, similar to how WAR is the simple, easy to learn tank. So when I say something like "WHM should be more like WAR", it's more to do with cognitive load rather than a 1-to-1 copy of mechanics. PLD is certainly a more thematic choice when comparing tanks, so I think it's fair to look at PLD and see if something similar to that could be adapted to a potential WHM build.

Personally, if I was to take more mechanical inspiration for WHM, I'd rather look at BLM; a high powered turret caster that emphasises big numbers and that feeling of raw power, and long cast times that go with it. However, it shouldn't be as punishing as BLM, and should take into account that it will have to interrupt its big damage spells for heals. WHM makes a lot of sense as the holy counterpart that focuses on the natural elements and the divine compared to BLM that revels in the destructive elements and despair.

[IDontPetLalas]

The main reason I tend to compare WHM and WAR is down to the idea that people are fine with WHM being the simple, easy to learn healer, similar to how WAR is the simple, easy to learn tank. So when I say something like "WHM should be more like WAR", it's more to do with cognitive load rather than a 1-to-1 copy of mechanics. PLD is certainly a more thematic choice when comparing tanks, so I think it's fair to look at PLD and see if something similar to that could be adapted to a potential WHM build.

Personally, if I was to take more mechanical inspiration for WHM, I'd rather look at BLM; a high powered turret caster that emphasises big numbers and that feeling of raw power, and long cast times that go with it. However, it shouldn't be as punishing as BLM, and should take into account that it will have to interrupt its big damage spells for heals. WHM makes a lot of sense as the holy counterpart that focuses on the natural elements and the divine compared to BLM that revels in the destructive elements and despair.

Seconded, that's the way that personally I've always perceived WHM, which also is a very typical and easy healer to understand and pick up as a first healer (I find) for someone who's played other MMOs