Dark Knight Megathread

[DRKoftheAzure]

Overcapping is an issue on any job with a resource meter, so I'm not sure why anyone would present this as a unique issue on DRK. The risk of overcapping is reduced when you have a bigger capacity relative to the cost. Having dead space on your meter just locks down resources for no good reason. Your functional capacity is still the same. If the 200 MP/tick is worrying you, then get rid of it.

Edge and Flood cannot create double weaves on their own, because they have a 1s shared recast. Many jobs, including GNB, RPR, SAM, and NIN utilize this 1s recast to prevent double weaving the ability with itself. In fact, even if you took away Edge and Flood altogether, you would still have plenty of double weaves.

If you want to reduce the number of double weaves, then you need to incentivize spreading them out. On RPR, for example, all your Soul spenders generate Soul Reaver stacks. So while you could in theory double weave Blood Stalk with Gluttony, you never want to, because you override the stacks. You could do something similar by having attacks like Shadowbringer and C+S/Abyssal Drain cost MP but generate blood in return. Or you could redesign the Dark Arts system around this.

Plunge is another unnecessary culprit for weaves. Melee DPS have moved away from gap closers that are damage gated. I'm not sure why this isn't the standard now on tanks as well. You should be allowed to use your movement tool as a movement tool.

It's also worth noting that both GCD length and weaves contribute to APM. You'd actually have a slightly higher APM with a 1.5s GCD and single weaves between every GCD than you would with a 2.5s GCD and double weaves between every GCD.

Honestly overcapping is a non issue when it doesn't even matter such as the boss becomes un-targetable for a specific mechanic, or dumping resources like it was cooldown, and ESPECIALLY if players don't even know it can be an issue such as new players.

As for gap closers still be using to do damage, the "but muh APM" argument that some people love parroting. In fact a lot of the discussion involving Dark Knight is those who hate the high APM or love it but still hate how cluttered it is, and the people trying to find a middle ground are usually ignored by the people who love the high APM as they are the VERY vocal minority. A high APM doesn't always equal fun, in fact a APM could potentially cause even more balancing problems than intended, especially for tanks, with Gunbreaker and maybe Paladin being an exception to this rule. But players going armchair developer can get players so far, especially if they have ANY interest game development, and the most we, the players, can do is provide feed back that is meaningful enough to matter for players to enjoy.

[Shurrikhan]

the people who love the high APM as they are the VERY vocal minority.

Evidence? {Do you have any?}

Imagine that communication without any perceived 'loudness' beyond the number of people posting/liking/voting one way or the other, as per a poll. Are you really so sure that those who like higher APM or what has historically been a higher-APM tank... are a minority?

A high APM doesn't always equal fun, in fact a APM could potentially cause even more balancing problems than intended, especially for tanks, with Gunbreaker and maybe Paladin being an exception to this rule.

While an APM does not always equal fun, generally doing things is, yes, more fun than time spent idle, so long as there is time enough at peak obligatory button-presses still to use conditional presses and the average APM isn't knuckle-wrenchingly high.

Higher APM also does not include balancing issues unless a unique degree of the job's output depends on having lower ping (which is ultimately a universal issue, but, sure, we'll count it against just the jobs most affected by that universal problem for now).

There is literally no difference, in itself, to balance between dealing a total of 1000 relative potency across a GCD, a GCD and oGCD, a GCD and 2 oGCDs, etc. Relative/effective potency is relative/effective potency.

:: Note also that fitting 2 actions (GCD animation lock + oGCD animation lock) into a 1.5s GCD is actually tighter, technically, than fitting 3 actions (GCD animation lock + 2 oGCD animation locks) into a full 2.5s GCD. I'm fine with both, honestly, but converting oGCDs into quick-GCDs doesn't actually do any favors for the limits of what all we can weave.

Finally, GNB and PLD, are not uniquely immune to the high-latency issues possible from double-weaving or high APM. They merely have fewer enticed double-weaves due to having fewer oGCDs meant to be spent under the 15s of full raid buff value (6 for PLD and 10 for GNB vs. DRK's 16).

[DRKoftheAzure]

While an APM does not always equal fun, generally doing things is, yes, more fun than time spent idle, so long as there is time enough at peak obligatory button-presses still to use conditional presses and the average APM isn't knuckle-wrenchingly high.

Higher APM also does not include balancing issues unless a unique degree of the job's output depends on having lower ping (which is ultimately a universal issue, but, sure, we'll count it against just the jobs most affected by that universal problem for now).

There is literally no difference, in itself, to balance between dealing a total of 1000 relative potency across a GCD, a GCD and oGCD, a GCD and 2 oGCDs, etc. Relative/effective potency is relative/effective potency.

:: Note also that fitting 2 actions (GCD animation lock + oGCD animation lock) into a 1.5s GCD is actually tighter, technically, than fitting 3 actions (GCD animation lock + 2 oGCD animation locks) into a full 2.5s GCD. I'm fine with both, honestly, but converting oGCDs into quick-GCDs doesn't actually do any favors for the limits of what all we can weave.

Finally, GNB and PLD, are not uniquely immune to the high-latency issues possible from double-weaving or high APM. They merely have fewer enticed double-weaves due to having fewer oGCDs meant to be spent under the 15s of full raid buff value (6 for PLD and 10 for GNB vs. DRK's 16).

There is also the issue that sometimes Dark Knight is forced to have Skill Speed on their BiS gear, which can cause GCD clipping issues with the oGCD spam unless you use spells, which is yet ANOTHER reason why I would want a good chunk of oGCDs to become GCDs.