SE, love the fight design but tone down the instant deaths a touch?

[ValkyrieL]

Zeromos has been described as the worst EX ever released by few content creators, it's a complete joke, and you seem to praise as the best....it just show the level of skill you want the game to be, and tbh is absolutely terrible.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Zeromos has been described as the worst EX ever released by few content creators, it's a complete joke, and you seem to praise as the best....it just show the level of skill you want the game to be, and tbh is absolutely terrible.

Who is? All the 6.x fights have sucked. The only good ex fights this expansion were hydaelyn and endsinger.

[Hyperia]

I almost think the game would benefit from savage having a hard limit on resses, kinda like how wow has a cap of battle reses (depending on party size)
Don't put the limit in casual content, but giving savage a res limit would mean every mechanic doesn't *have* to oneshot you

How about we make rezzing instant and free but with a 1 minute CD? Would make things more strategic and as such, reduce the need for so many instant I’ll mechanics due to limited rezzes. In addition to this, upgrade the healer LBs to Rez a limited number of people outside of the CD. LB1 rezzes 2 people (healers, then tanks then dps if more than two dead), LB2 rezzes 4 and LB3 remains the same. Would need to grant the casting healer higher survivability due to the limited rezzes.

[TaleraRistain]

Learn to channel your inner schadenfreude and see the funny side in your cohorts going pop. Raiding will be all the better for it.

When Styx goes bad on 11s and we start getting popped one by one, someone on our team hits the Taco Bell gong each time. When you can laugh about it and enjoy having fun while wiping, it really does help keep the energy to keep at it up.

[ForteNightshade]

Who is? All the 6.x fights have sucked. The only good ex fights this expansion were hydaelyn and endsinger.

... Wow. That's a hard disagree. Endsinger is among the most disappointing EXs in the game for me. She does practically nothing and actually has less going on than her normal mode version. Meanwhile, I'd say Barbie is one of the best fights in the game. One of the rare fast paced encounters they've done with something of an actual heal check, albeit mildly so. Golbez is good too even if Gale 2 is annoying. Personally, I like Zodiark but can't deny he's pretty much a target dummy. Rubicante is okay at best while Zeromus would be fine without the sac strat nonsense.

To each their own, I suppose. For me, they're a huge step up from the likes of Ruby and Emerald weapon which I found downright awful.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

... Wow. That's a hard disagree. Endsinger is among the most disappointing EXs in the game for me. She does practically nothing and actually has less going on than her normal mode version. Meanwhile, I'd say Barbie is one of the best fights in the game. One of the rare fast paced encounters they've done with something of an actual heal check, albeit mildly so. Golbez is good too even if Gale 2 is annoying. Personally, I like Zodiark but can't deny he's pretty much a target dummy. Rubicante is okay at best while Zeromus would be fine without the sac strat nonsense.

To each their own, I suppose. For me, they're a huge step up from the likes of Ruby and Emerald weapon which I found downright awful.

I just found Barb annoying with her mechanics, as a melee. Not fun at all. I didn't care for Rubicante because puzzle mechanics are dumb in fights. Golbez was annoying as hell with the wall attack.



My favorite EX fights were from Heavensward. Really the only raid tier I've enjoyed since Coil was Sigmascape. 5.x had a few good fights but a lot of annoying ones too. This one has been almost all misses for me.

[Colt47]

Zeromos has been described as the worst EX ever released by few content creators, it's a complete joke, and you seem to praise as the best....it just show the level of skill you want the game to be, and tbh is absolutely terrible.

Okay, so this is where the reality HAS to get slammed into the ground here. This game is a tab target MMO with a simple rotation combat system that is designed to get the most people possible to play. It is by design meant to be easy for the sake of repetition, since that is how people get anything in this game. If someone wants a mount, they got to go kill a boss 50 times and wait for the next patch. If someone wants to get a full set of raid gear, they got to go kill the savage bosses multiple times to get all the books and coffers.

You are absolutely right that there should be hard content, but hard content is not something that people want to go repeat continuously. Reclearing the latest Ultimate even after a group has cleared it once is an exhausting experience for everyone and anybody who does ultimates can attest to that. On top of which, the true difference between unoptimized 660 gear and BiS 660 gear is minimal. There's almost no reason for there to be a non-bis set at the same iLvL.

If they made Savage easy enough that the top 25% of the player pop are doing it, and this tier was as easy to do as the first tier of the expansion, it would make little to no difference to the game at large. They did it only because they believe they had to in order to retain subs during a patch slump and that is about it, but people are burning out from this stupid death fiesta because instant death fights where one person wipes the group because they didn't stand in the exact right place, is the opposite definition of repeatable content. Barbaricia and Papa Golbez were the least repeatable of the fights and also the most exhausting, despite them being fun for some people, because they had elements where the group would just flat out die.

However, when doing a fight without such effects, suddenly it becomes boring and too easy. It's almost like someone designed themselves into a hole because they over did streamlining of jobs and now the only thing left the designers can do to feign a challenge is to instantly wipe the group if one of your 7 buddies is having a headache, or gets a phone call, or someone distracts them for two seconds.

These fights are designed to simultaneously punish not knowing the mechanic, and also punish becoming tired and bored of the phase with the mechanic because the group gets constantly hitched there even when they are working on later mechanics.

[Kuroka]

Barbaricia and Papa Golbez were the least repeatable of the fights and also the most exhausting, despite them being fun for some people, because they had elements where the group would just flat out die.

However, when doing a fight without such effects, suddenly it becomes boring and too easy. It's almost like someone designed themselves into a hole because they over did streamlining of jobs and now the only thing left the designers can do to feign a challenge is to instantly wipe the group if one of your 7 buddies is having a headache, or gets a phone call, or someone distracts them for two seconds.

These fights are designed to simultaneously punish not knowing the mechanic, and also punish becoming tired and bored of the phase with the mechanic because the group gets constantly hitched there even when they are working on later mechanics.

Well said.
They were fun, especially Barbaricia, but all that "oh too bad your party is dead now" stuff... Like sure if you dont manage 4 ppl to stack or the tankbuster cleaves the party, thats on you. But so much stuff lately felt sooo punishing. And lets be honest, it always snowballs. People get nervous, make more mistakes and its over...

Like Zeromus Meteors suck, but they are doable. Easily that is. But there was no need to nuke the party on every mistake - just kill the guy who messed up, maybe ppl close to him but not that stupid "BOOM you wipe".
I love the part after the meteors, where you get the double tank busters, stack + 2 non stack aoe - thats nice can be saved from small mistakes.

And dont get me started on Golbez... I just hate all mechanics that demand everyone to be alive.

[Colt47]

Well said.
They were fun, especially Barbaricia, but all that "oh too bad your party is dead now" stuff... Like sure if you dont manage 4 ppl to stack or the tankbuster cleaves the party, thats on you. But so much stuff lately felt sooo punishing. And lets be honest, it always snowballs. People get nervous, make more mistakes and its over...

Like Zeromus Meteors suck, but they are doable. Easily that is. But there was no need to nuke the party on every mistake - just kill the guy who messed up, maybe ppl close to him but not that stupid "BOOM you wipe".
I love the part after the meteors, where you get the double tank busters, stack + 2 non stack aoe - thats nice can be saved from small mistakes.

And dont get me started on Golbez... I just hate all mechanics that demand everyone to be alive.

Yeah and that is why I'm personally angry at the statement that Yoshi P. stated, because what he said seems completely inaccurate in terms of a universal agreement on job streamlining and simplification. There had to be some translation error or he didn't get the right feedback. What I wanted, and I am not saying that this is universal, was to move away from complex rotations to make room for more optional skills that are situational. Things like the ranged dps's binding attack, melee stuns, and slowing enemy movement are all ways that help differentiate how a job tackles a situation. They took away all of those and now everyone is either reducing damage, or increasing defense. There is no movement snaring or anything that could make the fights organic and everything is 100% uptime or bust.

Sure, maybe these don't all work in savage, but they certainly work in every other type of content that they sacrificed for the sake of what they have now. I stuck around, tried out the expansion for multiple patches, and I have been patient beyond human limits with this entire thing. But the lack of responsiveness, the implied statement they are not going to change course (meaning we are stuck with this next expansion most likely), was not what I expected out of the fanfest.

[Jeeqbit]

My favorite extreme fights this expansion were EX1, The Voidcast Daiz and The Abyssal Fracture. EX2 was alright. Barb and Rubi were good mechanically, but I think the aesthetic just put me off. I almost forgot EX3, which I think was really good, but the fact I keep forgetting it exists despite having farmed all the totems might say something about it. It was very approachable to teach a party through it though, which I liked.

All I ever want for fights is for them to just not be what the normal modes are, where nothing matters and everything is too lenient. I want reprisals and raid-wide mitigation to matter. I want personal mitigation to matter. I want the mechanics to not go easy ie. swipe one side but then not the other. Extremes such as the 3 I mentioned strike the right balance for me but also make it realistic to take a party from fresh prog to a clear the same day, which is not so common with Savage for example. This is why they strike the right balance for PF.