DRK - AST/AST/AST - The frontline meta

[Aubrey_A]

I feel like the whole approach to remedying the DRK/[Insert Class] issue is a CC issue, so we are beating a dead horse trying to figure Frontline balance resolutions. The potential resolve is going to be one that works in both CC, with an "unintended" QoL improvement to FL.

Spitballing ideas (open to critique), I think DRK's Salted Earth utility should be revised. Instead of a draw-in ability with a radius of 10 yalms, Salted Earth should give a 5 or 10 yalm pushback. It makes some sense in CC because it would clear off the crystal of the enemy team much in the way Reaper's LB does, while keeping the damage reduction, 2k heal ticks, and 2k damage ticks. Upon re-entry of salted earth, the bind could still be activated. The switch in utility would change how DRK fundamentally plays in CC, but hopefully not reduce its overall effectiveness (looking at Quietus)?

The end result in FL would be less of a singular point to dogpile [inset class] limit breaks onto (e.g. Dragoons LB, GNBs LB, DRKs own LB, etc), while keeping utility to clear out objectives and make for some height plays on Onsal, Shatter, and Seal Rock (to some extent).

We're also talking about AST in this thread. What do we think about damage drop-off on Macrocosmos? Maintaining its 12k at close range, but decreasing down to 6k the further the enemy is from the Astrologin. Or on a slightly different note, reducing Gravity II's range down to 15? This would put AST more in the line of danger to make the most of Macrocosmos, or to get the cast off on their 1 or 2 Gravity II. I don't have enough experience with AST in CC to know if this would ruin it's capabilities there, or if there a benefit AST could be given as a trade. Regardless, that would be the main barrier to implement any AST changes.

[Astralrisk]

I feel like the whole approach to remedying the DRK/[Insert Class] issue is a CC issue, so we are beating a dead horse trying to figure Frontline balance resolutions. The potential resolve is going to be one that works in both CC, with an "unintended" QoL improvement to FL.

Spitballing ideas (open to critique), I think DRK's Salted Earth utility should be revised. Instead of a draw-in ability with a radius of 10 yalms, Salted Earth should give a 5 or 10 yalm pushback. It makes some sense in CC because it would clear off the crystal of the enemy team much in the way Reaper's LB does, while keeping the damage reduction, 2k heal ticks, and 2k damage ticks. Upon re-entry of salted earth, the bind could still be activated. The switch in utility would change how DRK fundamentally plays in CC, but hopefully not reduce its overall effectiveness (looking at Quietus)?

The end result in FL would be less of a singular point to dogpile [inset class] limit breaks onto (e.g. Dragoons LB, GNBs LB, DRKs own LB, etc), while keeping utility to clear out objectives and make for some height plays on Onsal, Shatter, and Seal Rock (to some extent).

We're also talking about AST in this thread. What do we think about damage drop-off on Macrocosmos? Maintaining its 12k at close range, but decreasing down to 6k the further the enemy is from the Astrologin. Or on a slightly different note, reducing Gravity II's range down to 15? This would put AST more in the line of danger to make the most of Macrocosmos, or to get the cast off on their 1 or 2 Gravity II. I don't have enough experience with AST in CC to know if this would ruin it's capabilities there, or if there a benefit AST could be given as a trade. Regardless, that would be the main barrier to implement any AST changes.

I don't know about the DRK change, mostly because the idea with the death pool is go get people to go into it and fight you in there. Not just for doing more damage, but taking less since its also a defensive tool for them. Which if you are fighting ranged enemies it becomes a pain to push the enemy away and either leave your defensive pool to kill them or just stand there like a dummy.

I do think the AST range could be smaller, or at the very least have its range be penalized. This is also more of a CC critique, but being behind a wall from an AST and getting owned by an AoE from someone I can't see is cringe. I think overall making it harder for them to get full damage cuz they have to be a squishy healer go in the middle of a group of enemies sounds like a decent balance.

[AnotherPerson]

I feel like the whole approach to remedying the DRK/[Insert Class] issue is a CC issue, so we are beating a dead horse trying to figure Frontline balance resolutions. The potential resolve is going to be one that works in both CC, with an "unintended" QoL improvement to FL.

Spitballing ideas (open to critique), I think DRK's Salted Earth utility should be revised. Instead of a draw-in ability with a radius of 10 yalms, Salted Earth should give a 5 or 10 yalm pushback. It makes some sense in CC because it would clear off the crystal of the enemy team much in the way Reaper's LB does, while keeping the damage reduction, 2k heal ticks, and 2k damage ticks. Upon re-entry of salted earth, the bind could still be activated. The switch in utility would change how DRK fundamentally plays in CC, but hopefully not reduce its overall effectiveness (looking at Quietus)?

Not really? Implementing a pushback forces DRK's whole toolkit to be redesigned. DRK wants to force multiple enemies to play in their salted earth because that's how they get the most benefit out of Quietus' healing and the natural effects of Salt and Darkness. The reason why Reaper LB works is because RPR itself doesn't have any skills that require being stationary to get its full value. They are highly mobile and RPR's healing follows them as a buff. DRK itself plays the exact opposite. DRK wants enemies inside their Salted Earth domain because Salted Earth does damage and heals themselves while inside. Salt and Darkness (combo action of Salted Earth) binds a target and guarantees additional damage after the draw-in effect, which works well in conjunction with Salted Earth doing DoT damage and forcing enemies to play in their heal zone. Enemies would want to move away from the salted Earth to reduce incoming damage and reduce DRK's advantage. Pushing the Crystal and stepping into DRK's Salted Earth is the consequence of where the Crystal is placed, similarly to SGE's LB. The enemy team would rather not step into it if possible, but DRK and SGE can force it because that is their advantage for a skill that is centered to a specific location rather a targeted enemy.

Applying a knockback immediately reduces the threat of Salted Earth's presence immensely to the point where DRK is now just a punching bag as enemies can completely avoid stepping into their strengthened zone initially. You'd have to rework Salted Earth to just not be a DoT effect entirely then, since the knockback defeats the point of the skill itself.

Imo, reducing Macrocosmo's damage from 12k at close range to 10k by 10yalms, and 8k by 20y is fine. That would effectively provide strengths and weaknesses to AST's positioning.

[Mecia]

Just delete Salted Earth entirely. There are better class fantasy abilities for DRK.

[Aubrey_A]

I don't know about the DRK change, mostly because the idea with the death pool is go get people to go into it and fight you in there. Not just for doing more damage, but taking less since its also a defensive tool for them. Which if you are fighting ranged enemies it becomes a pain to push the enemy away and either leave your defensive pool to kill them or just stand there like a dummy.

I never thought about the ranged portion. How AnotherPerson sums it up a knockback of probably isn't the answer given how much effort would be required to make it the answer. I still think the root to so many FL plays comes from a DRK being able to consolidate enemies into one location, so I'm inclined to say that's the area that needs to be changed (even though its pivotal to DRKs CC and pvp gameplay loop).

I do think the AST range could be smaller, or at the very least have its range be penalized. This is also more of a CC critique, but being behind a wall from an AST and getting owned by an AoE from someone I can't see is cringe. I think overall making it harder for them to get full damage cuz they have to be a squishy healer go in the middle of a group of enemies sounds like a decent balance.

Macrocosmos hitting through walls is an odd one to me. Some sort of reduction in damage feels like a step in the right direction, but I'm sure someone would come back to me and say it wouldn't make a difference with the zerg mentality in FL (just pile on a few more Astros to make up the damage loss, and we're back at square one).

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Just delete Salted Earth entirely. There are better class fantasy abilities for DRK.

Yeah no I'll humbly decline. Cap the draw-in at 5 targets maybe so you guys don't have to scare yourself shitless because spacing sub parties apart is apparently difficult, but removing Salted Earth because of FL crybabies, take a hike.

[Aubrey_A]

Not really? Implementing a pushback forces DRK's whole toolkit to be redesigned. DRK wants to force multiple enemies to play in their salted earth because that's how they get the most benefit out of Quietus' healing and the natural effects of Salt and Darkness. The reason why Reaper LB works is because RPR itself doesn't have any skills that require being stationary to get its full value. They are highly mobile and RPR's healing follows them as a buff. DRK itself plays the exact opposite. DRK wants enemies inside their Salted Earth domain because Salted Earth does damage and heals themselves while inside. Salt and Darkness (combo action of Salted Earth) binds a target and guarantees additional damage after the draw-in effect, which works well in conjunction with Salted Earth doing DoT damage and forcing enemies to play in their heal zone. Enemies would want to move away from the salted Earth to reduce incoming damage and reduce DRK's advantage. Pushing the Crystal and stepping into DRK's Salted Earth is the consequence of where the Crystal is placed, similarly to SGE's LB. The enemy team would rather not step into it if possible, but DRK and SGE can force it because that is their advantage for a skill that is centered to a specific location rather a targeted enemy.

Applying a knockback immediately reduces the threat of Salted Earth's presence immensely to the point where DRK is now just a punching bag as enemies can completely avoid stepping into their strengthened zone initially. You'd have to rework Salted Earth to just not be a DoT effect entirely then, since the knockback defeats the point of the skill itself.

Worded like that, a knockback doesn't seem like the right approach. I would like to see DRK move away from its draw-in in FL, but I don't think its kit could handle the change without some overhaul.

Imo, reducing Macrocosmo's damage from 12k at close range to 10k by 10yalms, and 8k by 20y is fine. That would effectively provide strengths and weaknesses to AST's positioning.

I'm on board with the damage reduction the further you are away. Another different idea came up, how about deferring some damage to the end of Macrocosmos/ at Microcosmos? If 12k is what we are working with, why not 8k in damage across the 20y, followed up by the existing heal/ 4k damage at the end?

A form of compiled damage in the same vein as Riddle of Earth might be a more interesting option. Seeing how Microcosmos heals are based on compiled damage, why not reduce a portion of ASTs Macrocosmos damage (8k for arguments sake), and microcosmos could compile damage for an end-of-duration hit? Even if it totals for more then the 12k, it's something that can be planned around given the damage can be telegraphed.

[Mecia]

Yeah no I'll humbly decline. Cap the draw-in at 5 targets maybe so you guys don't have to scare yourself shitless because spacing sub parties apart is apparently difficult, but removing Salted Earth because of FL crybabies, take a hike.

I didnt spit in your cereal, damn. I have no trouble evading this meta in FL, i just think SE is bottom of the barrel considering DRKs ability history.

Besides i never liked what they did with DRK overall compared to the other tanks. Its bread and butter is reverse WAR but arguably worse and its only game changing buttons are Eventide and Salted Earth.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I didnt spit in your cereal, damn. I have no trouble evading this meta in FL, i just think SE is bottom of the barrel considering DRKs ability history.

Besides i never liked what they did with DRK overall compared to the other tanks. Its bread and butter is reverse WAR but arguably worse and its only game changing buttons are Eventide and Salted Earth.

Fair enough, sorry for the rash comment. I am just getting really annoyed over the constant complaints of DRK when DRK is just a generic enabler, so I probably came over a bit too harsh.

Arguably, this is the most interesting version of DRK they have ever given to us. I enjoy it because I can be really tanky in one moment and a legitimate melee dps in another and the skills are nicely designed around active Shadowbringer usage. I think Plunge is also quite an important tool to turn the tides. DRK is a snowballing job due to this and the gameplay is constantly pushing the advantage you have or creating one. Granted, I also enjoyed pre 6.1 DRK which was about Darkside management + strong burst assist.

Back to the topic of addressing DRK's power state - if DRK is truly seen as the issue in FL and Salted Earth gets too much value, then 5-target cap on Salted Earth is the simplest way to handle DRK for largescale PvP. It would still be strong, just not overbearing. Beyond this nothing is currently worth tweaking for FL on DRK.

[Astralrisk]

I never thought about the ranged portion. How AnotherPerson sums it up a knockback of probably isn't the answer given how much effort would be required to make it the answer. I still think the root to so many FL plays comes from a DRK being able to consolidate enemies into one location, so I'm inclined to say that's the area that needs to be changed (even though its pivotal to DRKs CC and pvp gameplay loop).

They could just make it have a delay between Salted Earth and Salt and Darkness so you can't immediately get binded maybe? That might have issues with keeping people in as well but less bad. Mostly just spitballing this idea

Macrocosmos hitting through walls is an odd one to me. Some sort of reduction in damage feels like a step in the right direction, but I'm sure someone would come back to me and say it wouldn't make a difference with the zerg mentality in FL (just pile on a few more Astros to make up the damage loss, and we're back at square one).

You already need like 4 to make the bit work and if this change were in the game it would require more to make a oneshot happen. Which requiring more the 4max for a pre-made group it would prolly be really difficult. I can still see how it would be abused, just not as hard.