What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[Xirean]

-- As I've mentioned we were Azem...along with Ardbert and Golbez, and whoever is on the remaining reflections

Ok I really need you to explain why you keep sticking to the idea that the WoL is not in Elpis but is instead inhabiting Azem. We see the WoL travel to Elpis and appear as a mini ghost who then gets noticed by Hyth and Emit (noting the familiarity of the WoL's soul to that of Azem), enlarged & made solid, given clothes to better blend in despite everyone we talk to being able to instantly recognize as a familiar and specifically not "a person", compared to Meteion in regards to the lacking of aether, repeatedly badjured by Emet to explain who we are and what we are doing, and directly called out by Venat because she recognizes the ward on us.

Please help me understand what part of any of that allows for the non inclusion of literal time travel but also taking the place of any character besides the WoL and not Azem who is notably talked about as not being there by Venat, Hyth, and Emet.

[Turtledeluxe]

Ok I really need you to explain why you keep sticking to the idea that the WoL is not in Elpis but is instead inhabiting Azem. We see the WoL travel to Elpis and appear as a mini ghost who then gets noticed by Hyth and Emit (noting the familiarity of the WoL's soul to that of Azem), enlarged & made solid, given clothes to better blend in despite everyone we talk to being able to instantly recognize as a familiar and specifically not "a person", compared to Meteion in regards to the lacking of aether, repeatedly badjured by Emet to explain who we are and what we are doing, and directly called out by Venat because she recognizes the ward on us.

Please help me understand what part of any of that allows for the non inclusion of literal time travel but also taking the place of any character besides the WoL and not Azem who is notably talked about as not being there by Venat, Hyth, and Emet.

We are a reincarnation of Azem. That's why our soul is familiar. I'm confused as to why you are confused. The only thing I said that's controversial is Golbez is also a reincarnation because it's not exactly confirmed, but it's imo it's heavily implied as he's a paragon of virtue who goes unidentified for no reason and has their voice hidden. The fact Ardbert and WoL are literally Azem is well established.

I suppose you could argue we were Azem at some other time, but I don't buy that. I think the reason Hythlodeus mentions it and the reason they specifically denote Azem isn't around is because Azem is the unsundered version of all their shards in the reflections. In other words it would have been weird because they're us...seems like a pointless way to muddy the moment.

"With Ardbert speaking through the Warrior, Emet-Selch momentarily saw an Amaurotine who was an old friend of his in the Warrior's place. In truth the Warrior, and thus Ardbert as well, was a reincarnation of Azem, the fourteenth member of the Convocation of Fourteen from the ancient Amaurot."

This is from the wiki btw. My point being I was not aware it was controversial. The reason it is thinner btw is bc..you know..the sundering. You know we aren't a familiar and don't just happen to feel familiar to Azem lol.

And if you disagree and think the various hints in SHB and post SHB don't confirm it. Why exactly is Azem kept such a secret with the arc officially over? You know it, I know it. We were Azem. I never said it meant we can't time travel. I said it necessitates that the time travel create a deviation

Tbh I'm unsure why anyone would want to believe the literal WoL existed in Elpis. It's terrible writing. Just regard the Elpis visit timeline as a limited alternate fanservice thing that gets tacked onto MSQ for effect and honestly EW is great. I'm quite serious in that I really think all the Elpis stuff was really just an excuse so we could play it and meet the Ancients as our character. That's why I don't understand why people are so heated about it.

[Xirean]

Sir do you not remember the words you type and what they mean?

I played the game where it's casually hinted at multiple times that we were Azem. It's not possible the WoL existed in Elpis-- they're a sundered being.

Do you understand that the WoL was very literally in Elpis or not? Bad writing or not aside, do you understand that the WoL canonically existed in Elpis for the duration of the Elpis MSQ as a direct result of actual canonical time travel?

You keep saying these random things and going off on tangents about them. Kindly please stop doing that.

[Turtledeluxe]

Sir do you not remember the words you type and what they mean?


Do you understand that the WoL was very literally in Elpis or not? Bad writing or not aside, do you understand that the WoL canonically existed in Elpis for the duration of the Elpis MSQ as a direct result of actual canonical time travel?

You keep saying these random things and going off on tangents about them. Kindly please stop doing that.

Yes, I've said repeatedly that we time travel to Elpis. But my point is that, it doesn't make us part of the actual history. You can think that, I don't think that for all the reasons I've cited.

And I think every time someone "recognizes us" what they're reacting to is Azem. In the same way Hythlodeus does.

I guess I used the wrong wording. I meant we didn't exist in the past of Elpis as WoL, but rather Azem. As in the past PRE VISIT. The months, weeks, days, hours, seconds prior. We were Azem. We were likely Azem when we visited. That probably sounds confusing but I don't know how else to explain it. I'm referring to the time period. When we visit, the unsundered Azem wandering around but not shown, is actually us. We are there as well as WoL, so it's like we exist twice in the same space.

That's why Hythlodeus jumps on us for being a thinner Azem. Because we are.

[Xirean]

Yes, I've said repeatedly that we time travel to Elpis. But my point is that, it doesn't make us part of the actual history. You can think that, I don't think that for all the reasons I've cited.

And I think every time someone "recognizes us" what they're reacting to is Azem. In the same way Hythlodeus does.

I guess I used the wrong wording. I meant we didn't exist in the past of Elpis as WoL, but rather Azem. As in the past PRE VISIT. The months, weeks, days, hours, seconds prior. We were Azem. We were likely Azem when we visited. That probably sounds confusing but I don't know how else to explain it. I'm referring to the time period. When we visit, the unsundered Azem wandering around but not shown, is actually us. We are there as well as WoL, so it's like we exist twice in the same space.

That's why Hythlodeus jumps on us for being a thinner Azem. Because we are.

You've essentially head cannoned the entirety of Elpis as a giant Echo vision. Fun fact that's actually very close to how I suggested it should have worked some 600ish pages ago. What you are describing is time viewing and not time travel though. By this logic you don't think we actually traveled to the past and instead just looked at it which is prove-ably false; some of that proof I already posted to prompt this specific tangent.

[Turtledeluxe]

You've essentially head cannoned the entirety of Elpis as a giant Echo vision. Fun fact that's actually very close to how I suggested it should have worked some 600ish pages ago. What you are describing is time viewing and not time travel though. By this logic you don't think we actually traveled to the past and instead just looked at it which is prove-ably false; some of that proof I already posted to prompt this specific tangent.

No I haven't. It's well understood that when you travel to a point in time where another version of you exists, it creates a temporal paradox. Which is why I believe the Elpis visit itself is supposed to be considered a deviated alternate timeline that essentially conjoins with the present mostly for fanservice effect (the Hydaelyn trial, the Emet pop up at the end m, the raids, etc). The WoL can interact with this timeline to essentially do things Azem would have thereotically done in the same time. That is the idea.

I have in no way denied the Crystal Tower allows for time travel, that we time traveled, etc. I've been talking about this for soooo many pages. You can believe the Elpis visit is a single timeline time loop..idc I don't believe that. And nothing you have proves it. The devs haven't confirmed it. Because the situation with Elpis bends the rules and they don't feel like explaining it.

And please don't repeat "but Argos, but Elidibus", because it doesn't refute what I am saying. Here is a similar take on reddit:

"I interpreted the Elpis loop as being us creating an alternate timeline like Graha, but where he stayed in the alternate timeline, we returned to ours.
Then Venat confirms the "convergence", where due to actions being carried out were so similar to the original past, that alternate timeline fused back into the main timeline, bringing its minor changes with it.

By this interpretation the events of history could have occurred without us, but Venat would not be aware of future events, nor have tracked Metion. History would have occurred how it was explained in SHB: Venat opposed the sheer destruction of life.

This interpretation also resolves the potential paradox of Graha's timeline where the WoL died before they could visit Elpis, yet history remained."

The only difference is they aren't concerned with a time paradox as the reason for the alternate timeline. They theorize its because it is too similar to the original timeline which, I'm not sure why. That's also why I originally called it a plot Mcguffin tho bc it's kind a joke. The reason doesn't matter-- the writers wanted to conjoin the Elpis visit to the MSQ so they did. That's the real reason. What you are thinking is that it didn't need to be conjoined beduase well, we time traveled and it's a time loop that is now history! I do not think that otherwise why would they bother so blatantly calling out the conjunction .. and this does not mean the visit itself is an echo view or a fever dream. It means it is a literal timeline, a pocket of time where we time traveled, that splintered off from the original timeline (aa the user i quoted explained) and conjoined to the present msq timeline bringing the "minor changes" (I wouldn't say they're minor but I mentioned them already).

[Xirean]

No I haven't. It's well understood that when you travel to a point in time where another version of you exists, it creates a temporal paradox. Which is why I believe the Elpis visit itself is supposed to be considered a deviated alternate timeline that essentially conjoins with the present mostly for fanservice effect (the Hydaelyn trial, the Emet pop up at the end m, the raids, etc). The WoL can interact with this timeline to essentially do things Azem would have thereotically done in the same time. That is the idea.

Where is it canonically stated that a paradox is created when you time travel within the universe of Final Fantasy XIV?