Are <5.0 main villain> fanboys also supportive of <6.1-6.5 main villain>? *SPOILERS*

[Cleretic]

It's the same issue I have with the scions now, they have no inner conflict or any disagreements of ideals or anything to challenging their characters within their own circle. Like c'mon, *rolls eyes*

Define 'now', because Endwalker itself had Urianger have a very visible crisis about the fact he just keeps having to lie to people and wants to stop doing that. The thing is that the Scions have mostly had their big character development things in the past: Alphinaud in late ARR to Heavensward, Estinien in Heavensward with a decent amount afterwards, Lyse in Stormblod, Thancred and (to a lesser degree) Y'shtola in Shadowbringers, Alisaie in 5.x. Endwalker just wasn't really a time for that for most of them, partially because they've already had those developments and partially because Endwalker's story is very external and doesn't really put them in those sorts of situations. And, again, Urianger still found the time, and I wouldn't say Endwalker was a footnote for the twins either. And if we're only talking about 6.x? Well, there's some clear development for Estinien and Y'shtola, it's just not 'disagreements' or 'challenging their ideals' and more about them figuring out what to do after that whole 'saved the world' thing.

But fortunately, one of the very few things we know about Dawntrail is that it's leading with a situation that causes a divide between the Scions! So if you want interpersonal drama, you're getting it, and it'll probably be good fun!

[Cilia]

Serious faces on:

I enjoyed Emet-Selch as a villain, but don't see why so many people treat him with some kind of reverence. I've seen such villains before and already decided on my answer to their question(s), so while he was well-written he was nothing new. You'd think he's some kind of revolutionary or revelatory antagonist... maybe it's just that I've seen villains of his ilk, maybe because I'm schizoid, but he just didn't tug at my heartstrings the way he seems to have for so many other people.

Durante ("Golbez") was a filler villain and performed adequately in that respect. Not every villain is going to be an Emet-Selch and that's not a bad thing; variety is the spice of life (kind of why Athena was such a breath of fresh air after so many villains with loads of pathos). Given the constraints placed on the story he was important to (filler, had to wrap in 6.5 at the latest) I think he was decently handled - had a good reason not to comply with the Message™ of the story and victory came within his grasp. I don't have a problem with his character or how he was portrayed; it's everything else that's an issue with 6.x for me.

Speaking of Ardbert, it just occurred to me. If we're successful in restoring the 13th... that means Golbez/Durante (and possibly Zero)will die at the end, yeah? *That's* gonna be a fun expac. >_>

I mean, they've been alive for who knows how many thousands of years... while I imagine they'd want to get the ecosphere up and running again, they've earned their rest.

[Elucesta]

Define 'now', because Endwalker itself had Urianger have a very visible crisis about the fact he just keeps having to lie to people and wants to stop doing that. The thing is that the Scions have mostly had their big character development things in the past: Alphinaud in late ARR to Heavensward, Estinien in Heavensward with a decent amount afterwards, Lyse in Stormblod, Thancred and (to a lesser degree) Y'shtola in Shadowbringers, Alisaie in 5.x. Endwalker just wasn't really a time for that for most of them, partially because they've already had those developments and partially because Endwalker's story is very external and doesn't really put them in those sorts of situations. And, again, Urianger still found the time, and I wouldn't say Endwalker was a footnote for the twins either. And if we're only talking about 6.x? Well, there's some clear development for Estinien and Y'shtola, it's just not 'disagreements' or 'challenging their ideals' and more about them figuring out what to do after that whole 'saved the world' thing.

But fortunately, one of the very few things we know about Dawntrail is that it's leading with a situation that causes a divide between the Scions! So if you want interpersonal drama, you're getting it, and it'll probably be good fun!

Thats not challenging their ideals, or characters within their own circle. But it seems you understand what I'm talking about, because you mentioned thats what dawntrail will do, so thats good. Tired of the squad of scions being on the same page ALL the time.

[SannaR]

Serious faces on:

I enjoyed Emet-Selch as a villain, but don't see why so many people treat him with some kind of reverence. I've seen such villains before and already decided on my answer to their question(s), so while he was well-written he was nothing new. You'd think he's some kind of revolutionary or revelatory antagonist... maybe it's just that I've seen villains of his ilk, maybe because I'm schizoid, but he just didn't tug at my heartstrings the way he seems to have for so many other people.

Durante ("Golbez") was a filler villain and performed adequately in that respect. Not every villain is going to be an Emet-Selch and that's not a bad thing; variety is the spice of life (kind of why Athena was such a breath of fresh air after so many villains with loads of pathos). Given the constraints placed on the story he was important to (filler, had to wrap in 6.5 at the latest) I think he was decently handled - had a good reason not to comply with the Message™ of the story and victory came within his grasp. I don't have a problem with his character or how he was portrayed; it's everything else that's an issue with 6.x for me.



I mean, they've been alive for who knows how many thousands of years... while I imagine they'd want to get the ecosphere up and running again, they've earned their rest.

It's kind of funny for me as it's the same feeling for me when it comes to another villian (in a different game) who has done a lot(though maybe not as high of a body count as Emet-Selch) horrible things that a lot of the fanbase goes wild for and keeps on asking for them to show up somehow. That being Handsome Jack. Or as I like to do is use Tassiter's name for him aka John. Is he a great villian and one I love killing? Yes. But he is an annoying piece of trash that any time I'm playing the pre-sequal I'm constantly telling him to stfu. And his reson for why he did ANYTHING was all due to a very bad parenting decision in response to trauma. That he then used to go and do all of those other horrible things. Well that and greed. The only thing that's connected to him and well it's more of a person that I like and give some level of sympathy for and want more of is poor Timothy cause that guy didn't know wtf he was signing up for when he made the deal to become a doppelganger in order to clear out his debt.

[Cleretic]

It's kind of funny for me as it's the same feeling for me when it comes to another villian (in a different game) who has done a lot(though maybe not as high of a body count as Emet-Selch) horrible things that a lot of the fanbase goes wild for and keeps on asking for them to show up somehow. That being Handsome Jack. Or as I like to do is use Tassiter's name for him aka John. Is he a great villian and one I love killing? Yes. But he is an annoying piece of trash that any time I'm playing the pre-sequal I'm constantly telling him to stfu. And his reson for why he did ANYTHING was all due to a very bad parenting decision in response to trauma. That he then used to go and do all of those other horrible things. Well that and greed. The only thing that's connected to him and well it's more of a person that I like and give some level of sympathy for and want more of is poor Timothy cause that guy didn't know wtf he was signing up for when he made the deal to become a doppelganger in order to clear out his debt.

I've made the same Emet and Handsome Jack connection, too. Mainly because there's one thing Borderlands 2 does with Handsome Jack that Shadowbringers never did with Emet:

Bruise his ego.

The best part of having a character with such a towering image of themselves and what they've made is to see what happens when it actually gets damaged. (It's the entire reason Frasier was a good TV show.) Handsome Jack's full of fun quips and jokes, but the times he really got interesting for me were when we actually foil his plans or break his things, and he gets genuinely mad, it's great. His attacks on you and your allies get so much blunter, meaner and more personal, and his delivery starts carrying so much venom that it could kill an elephant. It's actually the thing that takes him from a kind of funny joke to a genuinely compelling villain for me, and adds so much texture to the arc, there's enormous peaks and valleys in Jack's mood and attitude.

Emet might have a more complex inner life, but externally he's much the same sort of character... except he never takes those hits. We never see him have to respond to his best-laid plans going awry, he just stays in his smug, self-assured internal castle for his entire screentime. Hell, he even dies on top, as far as emotional storytelling and stability goes. I think that's a real mistake in how to handle a character like that.

I have more and bigger problems with Emet-Selch, fixing this would hardly save him in my eyes, but I do think his Shadowbringers story could've benefited from having him really lose his cool once or twice. We had him doing a bit of that during Elpis in Endwalker, but that was too little too late.

[SannaR]

I've made the same Emet and Handsome Jack connection, too. Mainly because there's one thing Borderlands 2 does with Handsome Jack that Shadowbringers never did with Emet:

Bruise his ego.

The best part of having a character with such a towering image of themselves and what they've made is to see what happens when it actually gets damaged. (It's the entire reason Frasier was a good TV show.) Handsome Jack's full of fun quips and jokes, but the times he really got interesting for me were when we actually foil his plans or break his things, and he gets genuinely mad, it's great. His attacks on you and your allies get so much blunter, meaner and more personal, and his delivery starts carrying so much venom that it could kill an elephant. It's actually the thing that takes him from a kind of funny joke to a genuinely compelling villain for me, and adds so much texture to the arc, there's enormous peaks and valleys in Jack's mood and attitude.

Emet might have a more complex inner life, but externally he's much the same sort of character... except he never takes those hits. We never see him have to respond to his best-laid plans going awry, he just stays in his smug, self-assured internal castle for his entire screentime. Hell, he even dies on top, as far as emotional storytelling and stability goes. I think that's a real mistake in how to handle a character like that.

I have more and bigger problems with Emet-Selch, fixing this would hardly save him in my eyes, but I do think his Shadowbringers story could've benefited from having him really lose his cool once or twice. We had him doing a bit of that during Elpis in Endwalker, but that was too little too late.

I never found any of his quips and jokes as funny. He was always an unbearable pos in my eyes had zero redeeming qualities who as I said over reacted and thus ended up punishing his daughter. Who he then abused the crap of emotionally and mentally. I'm not sure how her prison kept her in there unless they said it had a very strong power dampener. So that by the time Moxi comes up with a plan for his casino I'm just groaning and rolling my eyes. The only saving feature of that whole DLC is Timothy and the whole Doubling Down side quest.

For me when he gets mad it's just the rare time he needs for a time to accept that he has always been that level of despicable. That the only reason anyone else saw it hiding under the surface is because his wife died. And even then I'm sure it would just have taken a longer amount of time to start showing. I mean for most of the pre-sequal the nice guy mask is barely on even before the game remembers that he has to become the most despicable, capital A a-hole he is for the rest of the series's timeline.

[Alleluia]

I mean, they've been alive for who knows how many thousands of years... while I imagine they'd want to get the ecosphere up and running again, they've earned their rest.

Presumably they'll be your teammates at that point, so at least people who complain the scions don't die will get what they want? If restoring the 13th and its people kills off the residents somehow and doesn't just restore them to their bodies after 10000 years. Its much more complicated than undoing the light infections on a non-sineater. And I honestly don't know how it could even work when dealing with the voidsent who've merged. Dominant personality wins out?

Though Zero is an edge case, being only partly voidsent, so restoring the 13th may not kill her off, even if it does generally kill off other people. Though, I suppose the process can't kill everyone immediately or else we won't have any npcs to revisit. Maybe in the end they'll have persistent islands of darkness in the world, alongside a restored lifestream and a method for actually dying, rather than just restoring the whole planet at once.


... I'm sorry, this is getting ridiculously off topic now.

[Kranel_San]

When did Emet-Selch apologize for his actions? He was dedicated to seeing it through till the last moment of his life.

Sadly, they butchered Golbez in the last moment, but he was a pretty cool villain too, and I say that as someone who didn't play FF4 yet.

[Mostly_Raxus]

what about Gaia, is it ok that she is just as guilty and culpable as emit or any other ascian and yet because she forgot all the people she murdered she is off the hook?
what about Fordola, just cause she had a sad backstory doesn't excuse her actions..
crap even Estinien was a crazed lunatic through the lancer quest line, but hey he was nice to that spoiled kid that got firewood once so all is forgiven i guess..

this entire game is full of this crap, its anime troupe that villains become alleys after defeated..
and not to mention we can be 10000000000% ok with a fake genocide in a video game because no one actually died regardless of how emotionally delusional it made you.

[thegreatonemal]

When did Emet-Selch apologize for his actions? He was dedicated to seeing it through till the last moment of his life.

Sadly, they butchered Golbez in the last moment, but he was a pretty cool villain too, and I say that as someone who didn't play FF4 yet.

You should play FF4 before making this comment.