Tank Stance/Shirk - Get rid of it.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

I do agree with that. Shirk serves no real purpose. Maybe there is a corner case that I'm not aware of? Shirk requires the "new" OT to hit a button to shed hate. They might not be aware the other tank put on tank stance and hit provoke (they should be, but maybe they aren't). If Shirk was reversed - where it stole someone's hate, I could see it still having a use (maybe?).

Shirk does have some fringe prog / run saving uses for mechanics where you *want* one tank to be 2nd in hate specifically for a mechanic and its a useful tool if said tank eats it before the attack and gets rezzed close enough that voking would be an extremely risky play of directing an attack at the wrong person. One criminal offender is Ultima's homing laser right after Annihilation. Or in DSR phase 7 where if the tank who's supposed to be the OT for an upcoming auto set eats it during one of the mechanics, having them voke would be extremely dangerous if they rez too close to the autos since that'd mess up the light/dark debuffs, whereas shirk can solve it easily.

Like I said though, very fringe cases, mostly relegated to deaths in very high end content where voke may be a risky solution depending on how the mechanic operates.

How about we STOP asking removals and folding whole concepts into a single button? Especially for bullsh** reasoning like "it is annoying having to press it at the start of the dungeon"?

But I agree with Reinhardt. Asking them to remove skills at all is a stupid idea. They should re-work or replace shirk with a new effect that works much better in the current day fight design than just removing it.

Also god no, don't ever remove tank stance as a button. We don't need aggro wars 24/7 or an OT being able to completely blitz a MT because they're playing/their gear is much better than the MT's.

[Derio]

No one wants to have to constantly be casting shirk though. Right now the way tank stance in its current state is fine as is.

[dspguy]

We are either clicking tank stance on/off or occasionally clicking shirk. They made aggro management as simple as can be. Back in 2.X, many jobs had a "shed hate" ability. But it was essentially just a button you hit when there was nothing else to weave between GCD. WAR used to have the "butcher block" combo for hate and the storm's eye/path combo for buff/debuff. Essentially, WAR had two options to get hate:

- put on tank stance and lose DPS
- keep tank stance off and use Butcherblock

When they added Shirk in HW, tanks could "circle shirk" to gain hate without using tank stance. I think at some point after that, SE realized that their grand scheme of aggro management was bypassed by players. So they just made it "easy mode."

[Zakuyia]

Its about time. There are many reasons, firstly at start of dungeon having activate is annoying. Secondly, there is no longer a need to Tank Stance with Enimity/Def up/Attack down. Thirdly, multi-tank run arent really a thing anymore.

IF you want to bring back Tank Stance to buff/Debuff again, I'll listen.

Enimity Mitigation can be handle with Shirk. Decrease recast time and that's solve the issue.

Sounds like a skill problem

[DRKoftheAzure]

Just bring back Enimty Combos. Problem solved.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Just bring back Enimty Combos. Problem solved.

Enmity combos will always be under the scrutiny of doing less damage than normal combos. They looked great visually, but they were arguably the worst part of enmity management.

No, what was good was something Warrior had and should've been a baseline, with variations of other actions to handle enmity. Namely OGCD Stance + Unchained. What they should've done was make Inner Beast have similar potency to Fell Cleave, get rid of Deliverance's bonus damage and treat Unchained as the "you can enter Defiance penalty-free" window, which would be part of your enmity management. And then make a similar system across all the tanks.

GCD Stances + Enmity combos were the bane of aggro management. OGCD Stances, Unchained and other enmity-generating actions were king (think DA-Plunge or DA-Dark Passenger for bonus enmity).

Also not sure why you revived a months old thread out of nowhere, I suppose you were bored and scoured the tank forum.

[Noox-115]

Unpopular opinion : I would like Tanks to have an Enmity Generation combo like they used to. I know it will sound dumb for a lot of people but I always love to have more combos to spice the fight a bit more beside it would split tanks and blue dps. But sadly they wanna make the game easy for everyone truly a shame.

[Rithy255]

If they want to make tank stance less annoying for synching they could make tanks passively generate enmity while having a button that decreases the generation, make it a role wide ability, I don't even get why we have tank stances as they are, they're pretty much just role actions that should be on by default. (raids if OT you usually want to turn it on after a burst imo). I guess it's to give us the illusion of "different stances" lol.

They could give us actual Enmity management, I doubt that with the direction going forward but I'd like stance dancing or having combos that generate Enmity would actually give tanks something to do other then be "blue dps" I personally don't want to just play blue DPS, I like support, I like doing things outside "dmg" while trying to maximise my DMG. That's what makes tank fun... but every change seems to want to make tank into easy melee jobs.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

If they want to make tank stance less annoying for synching they could make tanks passively generate enmity while having a button that decreases the generation, make it a role wide ability, I don't even get why we have tank stances as they are, they're pretty much just role actions that should be on by default. (raids if OT you usually want to turn it on after a burst imo). I guess it's to give us the illusion of "different stances" lol.

It's an awareness check on duty entry. I'd rather not have it be passive until turned off because that would be more annoying for me with co-tanks.

They could give us actual Enmity management, I doubt that with the direction going forward but I'd like stance dancing or having combos that generate Enmity would actually give tanks something to do other then be "blue dps" I personally don't want to just play blue DPS, I like support, I like doing things outside "dmg" while trying to maximise my DMG. That's what makes tank fun... but every change seems to want to make tank into easy melee jobs.

They could. Enmity management should be a tank's job, but let's stop kidding ourselves, enmity combos were trash. Managing CDs correctly to get the most enmity out of a specific attack window, that's what enmity should be about, not an obglitary combo noone will use because it does less damage and has no other purpose other than enmity.

[Mikey_R]

..Managing CDs correctly to get the most enmity out of a specific attack window, that's what enmity should be about, ....

Depending on how it is implemented, it might just feel redundant.

If I assume it is an oGCD that increases enmity, then you will be able to use it whenever you want and not have issues with enmity at all. Reasoning being, you have to look at the worst case scenario, a low gear tank and a high gear DPS. The tank should be able to hold enmity (they shouldn't be punished just because they only just got the gear for the instance etc.) regardless of the gear of the DPS. We then have to take into account the skill of the tank, you shouldn't expect the tank to need to play perfectly just to hold enmity, where this threshold should be is going to be a grey area, but it should be less than perfect play.

With both of those things considered, you end up with an oGCD that massively boosts enmity. So it just becomes another button you press on cooldown and doesn't really add anything.

Even talking about having tank stances back, but have unchained for all, you essentially negate any downsides for the stance, so you only use it when you have access to unchained. To then address skills changing, if you make them essentially the same then what is the point in making them different? Assuming the damage lost is negligible, what you have effectively done is lock a defensive behind your tank stance, unchained and any restrictions imposed upon this changed action (Fell Cleave/inner Beast costing 50 gauge).

In my opinion, both of these cases are just adding buttons for the sake of adding buttons. They don't add any engaging gameplay and you will often be frustrated when things don't line up as opposed to feeling good when it just happens to (which is out of your control, it either does or doesn't).