How do you define (meaningful) choice?

[Renathras]

I'm more trying to just see what people think than have a debate, but I do want to posit this:

If all choices are the right choice, then there is choice, just not meaningful choice.
If there is one right choice and everything else is wrong, then there is no choice - meaningful or otherwise.

I contest that only one right answer is a choice, much less a meaningful one.

So I feel like to have meaningful choice, there must be at the very least more than one right answer. The answers can be different flavor of thing - as noted before, HPS vs HPM is a meaningful choice in games where healing actually has a MP management component - but there must be more than one viable choice. If some choices are objectively worse (using Medica if you have Afflatus Rapture up or using Cure 2 if you have Afflatus Solace OR Tetragrammaton up), then there is no choice, meaningful or otherwise. There's only doing it right and fatfingering it (hence the 1-2-3 vs 1-3-1-3 mentioned above), which isn't a choice, meaningful or otherwise.

EDIT:

Oh, as an example of this - just invaded my brainspace:

Broil IV vs Ruin 2.

Ruin 2 has some cases where it is the better choice (situational) than Broil IV, and Broil IV has many situations where it is the better choice. But there is some gray area where it's up to the user. A tight movement where you MIGHT be able to get in the Broil, but the player might deem it too risky and go for the Ruin 2. This is still a meaningful choice since there is a choice and which answer is right isn't necessarily a set thing.

Contrast with Physic, which is basically always the wrong answer, and thus not a choice.

[TheDustyOne]

If there is one right choice and everything else is wrong, then there is no choice - meaningful or otherwise.

I disagree, the choice is meaningful, just not deep.

Let's say we take your Broil IV and Ruin II example for a minute here. When we don't need to move, Broil IV is obviously the right answer, but the choice to use Ruin II is still there, even if it's the wrong choice in that situation. The choice to use Broil IV over Ruin II is meaningful because we know the meaning behind why we're using Broil; that it does more damage than Ruin. Again, not exactly deep, and in a target dummy situation it makes Ruin II button bloat, but there's still meaning as to why someone is using Broil over Ruin.

Contrast that with someone deciding to use Titan over Garuda against a target dummy after their demi phase. They both do (roughly) the same damage and (roughly) the same mobility outside Slipstream. There's 2 choices, but it's not very meaningful, just choose whatever and your DPS isn't likely to suffer. Ruin II may be more situational and we ideally don't want to use it at all, but the choice to use it is ultimately more meaningful.

Also I know that when optimizing SMN, whether to use Titan or Garuda first can depend on party comp, but I'm talking in a general sense, the DPS gains are ultimately quite small.

Meaningful gameplay is about having consequences for your choices, depth is having lots of viable choices that are also meaningful.

[AmiableApkallu]

Ruin 2 has some cases where it is the better choice (situational) than Broil IV, and Broil IV has many situations where it is the better choice. But there is some gray area where it's up to the user. A tight movement where you MIGHT be able to get in the Broil, but the player might deem it too risky and go for the Ruin 2. This is still a meaningful choice since there is a choice and which answer is right isn't necessarily a set thing.

As you've phrased it, the correct answer isn't a set thing only because you've neither precisely formulated the question to be answered nor precisely formulated the criteria by which potential answers are to be evaluated:

• If the question is, "which action maximizes DPS for this GCD, everything else be damned" and it's theoretically possible to cast Broil IV safely, then the correct answer is Broil IV.
• If the question is, "which action is expected to maximize my personal DPS for this GCD" and there is a 220 / 295 ~= 75% chance or better of casting Broil IV safely (where "not safely" means, say, tanking the floor), then the correct answer is Broil IV. Otherwise, the correct answer is Ruin II.
• If the question is, "which action maximizes the party's DPS for this fight" and there's a non-zero chance you might wipe the party if you cast Broil IV, then the correct answer is Ruin II.
• Etc. Etc.

The choice between Broil IV and Ruin II here isn't meaningful because you're trying to choose between the actions themselves. It's meaningful because you're trying to decide which question you actually care about, and then trying to answer it with imperfect knowledge (do you really know what your chances are of pulling off a Broil IV are?).

[Renathras]

As you've phrased it, the correct answer isn't a set thing only because you've neither precisely formulated the question to be answered nor precisely formulated the criteria by which potential answers are to be evaluated:

• If the question is, "which action maximizes DPS for this GCD, everything else be damned" and it's theoretically possible to cast Broil IV safely, then the correct answer is Broil IV.
• If the question is, "which action is expected to maximize my personal DPS for this GCD" and there is a 220 / 295 ~= 75% chance or better of casting Broil IV safely (where "not safely" means, say, tanking the floor), then the correct answer is Broil IV. Otherwise, the correct answer is Ruin II.
• If the question is, "which action maximizes the party's DPS for this fight" and there's a non-zero chance you might wipe the party if you cast Broil IV, then the correct answer is Ruin II.
• Etc. Etc.

The choice between Broil IV and Ruin II here isn't meaningful because you're trying to choose between the actions themselves. It's meaningful because you're trying to decide which question you actually care about, and then trying to answer it with imperfect knowledge (do you really know what your chances are of pulling off a Broil IV are?).

Yeah, but the point is, those are actually interesting questions and thus allow for choice, especially when the answer ISN'T automatically clear.

Contrast Medica 1 vs Afflatus Rapture or even Medica 2. In which case is Medica 1 ever the correct choice? Or Cure 1?

I'm sure if you work hard enough, you MIGHT come up with something for Cure 1 (if the person will die if they don't get SOME healing within 1.5 sec, and where Cure 1 would satisfy that, and where all your instant cast and oGCD heals are on CD), but it's a pretty wild case that is exceptionally rare. On the other hand, there is no case for Medica 1 unless you have EXACTLY 900-999 MP (but not 1000 where you could cast Medica 2) AND where you only have one Lily AND can't spend it due to either overcapping or anticipating a future movement you need it AND you can't cast Swiftcast.

...which isn't just rare, it's effectively impossible to ever happen since MP ticks will almost always take you above 1000 if you aren't to 900 yet, and you're almost always going to be well above this, and even if you aren't, you likely have oGCDs or other tools available to use.

That means Medica 1 is basically NEVER a choice from level 50 onward, and Cure 1 is only rarely a choice before about 52, and never after that.

Broil IV and Ruin II actually offer something, Cure 1 and Medica 1 do not.