The State of Red Mage is Insulting

[kayll]

If you cry as hard as Warrior mains did you'll have both identical damage to BLM *AND* superior utility.

Or maybe my opener will finally do more than a certain tank, That'd be nice at least.

[GoatOfWar]

Ah, that tank with downtime dps that is actually lower than that of a healer.
Also, lmk when they release an endgame fight that ends after the opener or when that tank starts enabling ultimate runs without healers.

[Rongway]

If you cry as hard as Warrior mains did you'll have both identical damage to BLM *AND* superior utility.

If we cry any louder, instead of just putting a 60s cooldown on Verraise and increasing all attack damage, they'll do a full overhaul of the job and leave us with three attack buttons.

[Renathras]

Not that I disagree with you on RDM, OP, but you have a few things not quite right here:

SMN was ridiculously mobile in ShB. People attack its mobility now as part of making the Job "braindead" and "a Ranged Phys" not a Caster...but in ShB, here is a list of all the instant casts SMN had in a 2 min cycle:

All Ruin 3s under DWT (about 8?). 8 Egi Assaults, each one with a 30 sec CD (when they were GCDs). 8 ruin 4s per minute, 4 in Bahamut, the other 4 wherever you wanted them. 8-10 attacks (depending on spellspeed; I think 9 was the average) of Brand of Purgation/Fountain of Fire under Phoenix. 1 natural Bio refresh. 2x uses of Swiftcast.

That's a total of 35 (if using the Swiftcasts) to 37 (if getting all 10 Phoenix instants) within a 2 min cycle. For a 2.5 sec GCD (8 under Phoenix, so using the 35 number), there are 48 casts in 2 minutes. 68.75% of ShB SMN's casts in their 2 min cycle were instant casts. And it could, at any time, use Ruin 2 for a relatively mild (I think it was 20-40?) potency DPS loss if it needed even more movement. ShB SMN was stupidly mobile and "not a caster" at the time, as only 31.25% of its casts were actually hardcasts. Yes, it's gotten even more extreme with EW SMN, but this isn't at all a new thing. SMN was pretty mobile before.

.

The idea that SMN players by and large do not want a Raise is also pretty unlikely. For many people, it's one of the main draws to the Job (as it is to RDM players). Keep in mind many people who play this game aren't hardcore raiders trying to min-max and justify a raid spot. Further, SMN's raise allows it to compete with RDM for the "prog mage" raid slot, something they'd lose without it. Doing more damage doesn't help you if your party is wiping to mechanics without getting anywhere near enrage in the first place. So I don't think you'd find a large portion of SMNs actually not wanting their Raise...and they've had it FAR LONGER than RDM players, because they had it 4 years before RDM even existed in the first place. (Granted, at the time, so did PLD, though it wasn't a combat version.)

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Might be best if you stick with the RDM side of things and not the SMN side of things for now. I do agree with some of your points there, such as raise utility being far lessened when encounters are body checks for daaaayz.

[Silverquick]

I honestly think this thing plays like a dream compared to how it used to, the ability to not have to even have a full guage anymore to pull off combos has been huge. I just do one after another these days and its so easy to get there, I've never been able to do it this well before.

The real difference is that now you have to stay in melee range entirely rather than back and forth like you used to get the most out of it.
But it is true that Enchanted (Meant to say Reprise) seems to have fallen off in usage despite being a good addition. You only need 3 to combo over and over when you throw in manification. This thing is way better than it used to be.

That said... RDM has never been a high damage class, so if you were expecting that... don't. RDM has never been... as in ever EVER been a high damage class in FF, in fact they even Nerfed the hell out of Bards in this game when because they became that. So... knowing they are NEVER going to give RDM competetive damage...

I think the focus needs to be more on the versatility aspects. The RDM has great BLM representation, but could perhaps use more WHM representation (That's what the class is, half WHM and half BLM).

Due to the way the class has shifted from an in and out fighter to more of a front liner, I think perhaps this class should have a personal damage shield similar to Adloquium that SCH has. Because RDM is, due to how it works, going to be more reliant on being in the thick of things... I think that is what is most needs.

I too think the Manashield is... bunk... I mean seriously... 10 seconds? Couldn't we at least go 20 for that kind of a CD? Still it's minor compared to the just how well this thing plays now in comparison to the past but that is pretty low.

EDIT: On a side note... due to how easily you can do combos now I don't really use Impact that much in AoE situations anymore, I usually just use Manafication to start off, then VerAero2 and Verthunder2 to build up quick and then blow the Moulinets with combo to get the big whammy. I only tend to use Impact when it's just before a boss and I want to save 2-3 quick opener combos for a big splash in the beginning.

[ICountFrom0]

They don't make summoners less powerful because they have a revive... it's just an excuse. One of the casters has to be bottom of the pile, and RDM gets to be that, FOREVER.

Just wish it wasn't QUITE so obvious.

[kajv95]

Not that I disagree with you on RDM, OP, but you have a few things not quite right here:

SMN was ridiculously mobile in ShB. People attack its mobility now as part of making the Job "braindead" and "a Ranged Phys" not a Caster...but in ShB, here is a list of all the instant casts SMN had in a 2 min cycle:

All Ruin 3s under DWT (about 8?). 8 Egi Assaults, each one with a 30 sec CD (when they were GCDs). 8 ruin 4s per minute, 4 in Bahamut, the other 4 wherever you wanted them. 8-10 attacks (depending on spellspeed; I think 9 was the average) of Brand of Purgation/Fountain of Fire under Phoenix. 1 natural Bio refresh. 2x uses of Swiftcast.

That's a total of 35 (if using the Swiftcasts) to 37 (if getting all 10 Phoenix instants) within a 2 min cycle. For a 2.5 sec GCD (8 under Phoenix, so using the 35 number), there are 48 casts in 2 minutes. 68.75% of ShB SMN's casts in their 2 min cycle were instant casts. And it could, at any time, use Ruin 2 for a relatively mild (I think it was 20-40?) potency DPS loss if it needed even more movement. ShB SMN was stupidly mobile and "not a caster" at the time, as only 31.25% of its casts were actually hardcasts. Yes, it's gotten even more extreme with EW SMN, but this isn't at all a new thing. SMN was pretty mobile before.

.

The idea that SMN players by and large do not want a Raise is also pretty unlikely. For many people, it's one of the main draws to the Job (as it is to RDM players). Keep in mind many people who play this game aren't hardcore raiders trying to min-max and justify a raid spot. Further, SMN's raise allows it to compete with RDM for the "prog mage" raid slot, something they'd lose without it. Doing more damage doesn't help you if your party is wiping to mechanics without getting anywhere near enrage in the first place. So I don't think you'd find a large portion of SMNs actually not wanting their Raise...and they've had it FAR LONGER than RDM players, because they had it 4 years before RDM even existed in the first place. (Granted, at the time, so did PLD, though it wasn't a combat version.)

.

Might be best if you stick with the RDM side of things and not the SMN side of things for now. I do agree with some of your points there, such as raise utility being far lessened when encounters are body checks for daaaayz.

I think you may have misread some things, I've only spoken about the rotational aspect of Stormblood's Summoner, as this is not a Summoner thread. I do not play Summoner as often as Red Mage, and think the Summoner discussion is better suited for others to pick up. However, it was important for me to bring up specifically how it was in Stormblood, as that was when Red Mage's debuted and gained the "free movement" stigma it still carries with it today, despite it all. I also do not advocate for the removal of Raise. I am a proponent of keeping job design intact while introducing meaningful changes that alleviate the problems at hand. Just how Red Mages may be best suited to casual content, that still doesn't give me the feeling like Black Mages need to be so strong that they effectively disqualify the others in harder content. On a seperate note, I don't think comparing "who had the raise longer" is in any way something to speak about, as I believe they've both had it since inception, and thus both players who've been here from the start of their jobs would most likely lament the loss. However, I think most players can agree that something has to give by this point, whether that's re-adding supportive abilities to the game that are actually meaningful or, albeit begrudglingly, nerfing the raise if that would allow the devs to feel like they can be atleast... closer in power.

I honestly think this thing plays like a dream compared to how it used to, the ability to not have to even have a full guage anymore to pull off combos has been huge. I just do one after another these days and its so easy to get there, I've never been able to do it this well before.

The real difference is that now you have to stay in melee range entirely rather than back and forth like you used to get the most out of it.
But it is true that Enchanted Redoublement seems to have fallen off in usage despite being a good addition. You only need 3 to combo over and over when you throw in manification. This thing is way better than it used to be.

That said... RDM has never been a high damage class, so if you were expecting that... don't. RDM has never been... as in ever EVER been a high damage class in FF, in fact they even Nerfed the hell out of Bards in this game when because they became that. So... knowing they are NEVER going to give RDM competetive damage...

I think the focus needs to be more on the versatility aspects. The RDM has great BLM representation, but could perhaps use more WHM representation (That's what the class is, half WHM and half BLM).

Due to the way the class has shifted from an in and out fighter to more of a front liner, I think perhaps this class should have a personal damage shield similar to Adloquium that SCH has. Because RDM is, due to how it works, going to be more reliant on being in the thick of things... I think that is what is most needs.

I too think the Manashield is... bunk... I mean seriously... 10 seconds? Couldn't we at least go 20 for that kind of a CD? Still it's minor compared to the just how well this thing plays now in comparison to the past but that is pretty low.

EDIT: On a side note... due to how easily you can do combos now I don't really use Impact that much in AoE situations anymore, I usually just use Manafication to start off, then VerAero2 and Verthunder2 to build up quick and then blow the Moulinets with combo to get the big whammy. I only tend to use Impact when it's just before a boss and I want to save 2-3 quick opener combos for a big splash in the beginning.

Comparing damage of Red Mage to other Final Fantasy games is seriously cherry-picking components of the subject. Red Mages have super good utility in other Final Fantasy games, and have much better defensive capabilities than the other mages due to them often serving as frontline fighters despite being mages, whereas in this game they end up being squishy af. They have no bulk, no shield, no enfeeblements to apply, they can't even interject. The same is true about Bards, bards tend to have supportive capabilities - not here. It's pretty clear that the FFXIV Job Team does not necessarily design things like it would be in other FF games, with this being a very different game. Ever since Shadowbringers, the game has been simplified to revolve around one metric alone - damage. Either the jobs that have supportive abilities have to become more powerful in spite of this, or the supportive abilities that are still here need to be made more impactful.

As an aside, this problem is currently almost entirely exclusive to the caster role, which is what this post is about. If I am to extend the comparisons to other roles, then I can start asking questions how Monk's Mantra, a very similar move to Magick Barrier, does not actually get taxed in its dps at all compared to all the other Melees for example.

They don't make summoners less powerful because they have a revive... it's just an excuse. One of the casters has to be bottom of the pile, and RDM gets to be that, FOREVER.

Just wish it wasn't QUITE so obvious.

There's always someone to be at the bottom of the pile, and I genuinely don't care if Red Mages will forever be the weakest. However, the job currently does not make a difference due to lackluster damage and lackluster proactive support, as Magick Barrier is trash and Verraise is reactive when the proverbial dung hits the fan, and specifically when it's either the healers or when the healers are already out, which feels like a massive edge case scenario for anyone I've talked to about this.

[Kabooa]

This is the worst history lesson I've attended.

[angienessyo]

If they'd just let us do the melee combo outside of melee range, that'd at least help mitigate some of our mobility issues. I mean, next expansion when we inevitably get another finisher, more than half our burst will be ranged anyway. Right now fight design often forces the RDM into a ranged spot during 2 minutes. Like, the 2 melee players and the tanks aren't exactly going to let me steal a melee spot during Superchain or something. Our other weakness would be covered with a personal barrier as we're the only caster that currently has to be babysat during certain mechanics. (especially during Ultimates or week 1 savage)

I don't really mind doing less dps than the other casters as that's just how it's always been. But it really only bothers me now with this expansion's fight design being so overly hostile to the job. I have to put in more effort to keep uptime for a lot less reward.