Dawntrail Wishlist top 3 desired healer additions

[Beddict]

My post was "Condolences, I agree with what you said, and I'm sorry you were hurt."

And yet, from mine, you get that ridiculous caricature above.

Yeah, because your post included a sales pitch to your Four Healers Model that you're always going on about and attacked the Forum. You know what Ty said in his response? He offered his condolences, acknowledged how painful losing a pet can be by mentioning his old pug, and then clarified he wasn't trying to attack anyone. Same with Sani who offered their condolences, said they weren't trying to be rude, and expanded on why they made their post. You could've just offered your condolences and told them to come back at a later date as well, but you didn't do that. Did you really need to bring up your Four Healers Model? Did you really have to cast shade on the Healer Forum? That's some bullshit right there, just offer condolences and move on. Maybe pick fights that don't include using a fucking condolence post as a base.

[GrimGale]

Please, please, please, please stop replying to the forum troll. What a surprise they made another person's post all about themselves and here you gave them the attention they craved. Block and move on.

[Connor]

Please, please, please, please stop replying to the forum troll. What a surprise they made another person's post all about themselves and here you gave them the attention they craved. Block and move on.

I mean, I’m not taking a side because I honestly have no idea who is/isn’t a troll anymore. But aren’t they too consistent for that? Even a troll wouldn’t stick with the same idea for so long; wouldn’t it get boring annoying people with the same thing all the time? I feel like not changing things up is evidence against someone trolling lol. Then again, there’s also the whole thing about trolls dressing up their ideas as something that seems reasonable on the surface, so it’s hard to judge. But I’d like to hope that’s not the case

[GrimGale]

But aren’t they too consistent for that? Even a troll wouldn’t stick with the same idea for so long; wouldn’t it get boring annoying people with the same thing all the time?

Their MO is consistently the most effective way to bait people into replying. It has worked for a long time because it only appears to bring up genuine discussion but they quickly derail their own threads (and other people's threads) by playing the victim of the forum, which in turn brings more replies.

Going back to the topic at hand:

I guess it's only natural for players to wish for more GCD filler skills. It is pretty much the only design space left for the devs to add anything meaningful. But then again, this sentiment was also voiced back at the end of Shadowbringers- "Now that we've had a clean slate and 2 years of glarebroil spam, devs HAVE to give us something to do right? They won't possibly give us more healing and neglect our barren filler kits, right?"

[Renathras]

Not that I don't trust healers, but what I want most for healing in Dawntrail is to get revive back on Paladins at 100.

That would be kind of cool. PLD needs a boost, but that might be too much of one. Of course, then we'd also see just how much SE wants to tax raises.

Put bluntly this is the only way I read it…

Mhm, that's what it seemed like to me as well.

Ren’s idea taken literally (‘make one healer stay the same’) doesn’t solve any issues, but at the same time I do think there’s an argument for a healer to be ‘mostly the same as it is now’.

Like, to take White Mage as an example, the basic concept is that it’s focused more on high-potency direct healing and damage abilities as opposed to the more nuanced approach other healers take. Naturally, this concept doesn’t really work currently because there’s no decision making - you can just hit any heal and you’re basically done, and you only have one dps ability to use anyway. But that doesn’t mean that concept can’t stay the same but develop in a way that still improves the overall gameplay.

As often as I word it "stay the same", it's probably more accurate to say "mostly" in there, and I've expressed this before. For example, my own WHM proposal:

1) Add Protect (level 20), Pro-Shell (40), Plenary (60) to reduce 10% physical/physical and magical/physical and magical and buff AOE heals for the 10 sec duration.
2) Remove Solace and Rapture and instead make an "Afflatus" button. When you have a lily, you use this like Eukrasia to convert any of your GCD heals into instant cast, no MP consumption, and nourish the Blood Lily. (E.g. options to use your other GCD heals).
3) Have Cure 1 upgrade into Cure 2, reducing Cure 2's cast time to 1.5 sec and MP cost to 500.
4) Have Medica 1 upgrade into Medica 2. Increase Medica 2's initial cure to equal Medica 1's outright (not relying on that first HoT tick).
5) Make Assize a GCD with 2 charges.
6) Reduce Lilybell's recast to 2 mins.
7) Upgrades increase the potencies of Glare, Dia, Holy, and Misery as per expansion norms.

A) POSSIBLY have all GCD heals nourish the Blood Lily outright though restricting this to Afflatus might be best.
B) POSSIBLY institute the system I proposed before where casting 3x Glares empowers your next Holy to do 3x Damage to the primary target (making it used in the single-target rotation to break up Glarespam), and this comes with giving Holy a range of up to 25y and allowing it to either be cast on a target or centered on the caster (like how Cure 3 works).
C) POSSIBLY returning Aero 3 and having some upgrade to it (Banish, probably).

This isn't WHM not being changed at all (and the A and B options are also pretty significant changes), it's just it not being turned into a DPS, which is what I oppose.

Sounds to me like someone hasn't been paying much attention when I do expand on why it's bad design, and then proceeds to take that explanation as a personal attack for some reason.

Look, this needs to end.

You guys need to stop trying to deflect any critiques against your points or views with "Ren is just claiming he's being personally attacked".

It doesn't work. It doesn't defend your positions. It doesn't mean the attacks don't or didn't happen. And it doesn't change anything or any minds.

As for your example: Need I point out the difference between an ARPG and a tab targeting MMO RPG?

It's not "bad design". You don't like it. But that isn't how bad design is defined.

To me, what bad design is is designing things to all be the same. Where there is difference, there is good design. What you want, to me, is bad game design. You can love it, but it's still bad design. There is "a proper gameplay experience" NOW. "proper" isn't the word. The word is "experience you would prefer/enjoy more". And for the last time, what I do isn't "button mash".

Serious question: Do you believe saying someone's preferred gameplay is "button mash" is an insult or a complement? It's not a statement of fact, so you don't get to say that. It's an insult and we both know it.

I want you to have the option to "do more than that". If you have SEVERAL options that allow it, then you HAVE "the option to do more than that". If SCH and AST were changed, for example, you'd have "the option". You aren't asking for "the option". You're asking for ALL to be that, and there to be no option. For anyone who doesn't like that to be "bad" and not able to clear content or play the game. That is what you're asking for.

...but we've had this song and dance before a hundred times. You're no more likely to see the light now than before...

Yeah, because your post included a sales pitch

The guy has posted in threads with me before, it wasn't a "sales pitch". It was a "I agree with you, and it's why I support this thing because I think what you're saying is the best way to deal with things".

You know what everyone else did in their responses? Told him they had no way to know that and that he was kind of guilt tripping them. Even Connor saw it, so I'm not the only one that interpreted it that way.

This is how you read our posts,

You mean like how you read mine?

Please, please, please, please stop replying to the forum troll.

What you just did is trolling. Do you even...know what trolling is? I'm not the one doing it, damnit.

Their MO is consistently the most effective way to bait people into replying.

The hell? o.O

In this particular case, I see you guys proving something I said a long time ago - that this place is an echo chamber that is meanspirited to those not towing the line and drives off people who disagree. I was told that isn't true and this place everyone (but me) agrees because they're all right. But this was an example of you guys driving someone off. AGAIN.

I didn't want to put it so on the nose, but sure, there it is since that's what you want.

I never post with the "most effective way" to get people to reply. I just type up what I think about things and hit reply.

And note that I was talking about the topic at hand here...until getting to your post calling me a troll. Guess shame on me for replying to your trolling.

But aren’t they too consistent for that?

Yeah, I'm not a troll. He just doesn't like what I have to say and tries to get people to boycott and shun me. I don't know if he actually believes it or if he just really doesn't want my ideas getting serious consideration, but in either case, he's wrong to do it.

Collectively, they don't like my ideas. But other than a few (Ty and Roe, usually; though Ty does get in moods sometimes where he spends a few days being kind of a jerk and joining the dogpiles, too), they just insult me instead of discussing my ideas seriously. Because they REALLY don't like the ideas. But then they'll insist it's not attacks, despite derision, outright insulting namecalling, and all liking each other's posts where someone badmouths me. If you want to get a bunch of likes here, just make a post attacking me and calling me names. And the best part is, after getting all those upvotes, if I say it's an attack, they'll all come to your defense saying it's all just in my head that I'm being attacked (gaslighting me).

For my part, I seriously want to discuss ideas, and try to do so in my posts. I will defend myself when attacked, but I'd rather discuss topics and ideas.

And also note, I'm VERY rarely the first one to attack. Note my initial post here didn't attack anyone. It was literally me saying my condolences, I agree with his idea, and I was sorry that he was attacked by people. I didn't accuse any specific person of anything and my post was compassionate.

Of course, then follows a page of people attacking me.

But it's all in my head, you see?

And I'm a troll.

But calling me one isn't an attack or insult. Because that's all in my head, of course.

.

But, my arguments are also extremely consistent:

1) I generally oppose changing things out from under people, and if it must be done, should be done in a way that people who liked the original thing aren't left out in the cold; I've held this position with healers, with DNC, with DRG, with SMN, and with PLD. That is, I don't support robbing people of things, and if we DO have to do it, I think their original play should be retained in some way (e.g. Healers with WHM, old SMN's DoT mechanics with Green Mage, and so on)

2) I believe that diversity in Job design and mechanics is good - that one being simple or one being complex isn't bad, that the bad comes from ALL of them being so.

3) I do support returning things to ways they were before that people enjoyed - SCH and AST both to their SB incarnations - to restore them to what people at the time liked.

4) As a caveat to that, I point out frequently when things weren't - WHM in SB sucked - though I'm fine with adding Aero 3 back to it, since that wouldn't return it to the sucky state that SB WHM was.

5) And that in cases where there was no prior form, then there's not an argument to "restore" what was "lost" (e.g. contrasting SCH having had its SB kit with SGE only ever having what it has today).

6) That I want a solution that makes the most people happy but doesn't leave any one group in the cold for the benefit of some other group getting exclusive monopoly to everything instead. I think that's selfish, no matter which side is getting all the marbles.

[Sebazy]

Read that post again.

14 people did so far it seems

[ty_taurus]

I want you to have the option to "do more than that". If you have SEVERAL options that allow it, then you HAVE "the option to do more than that". If SCH and AST were changed, for example, you'd have "the option". You aren't asking for "the option". You're asking for ALL to be that, and there to be no option. For anyone who doesn't like that to be "bad" and not able to clear content or play the game. That is what you're asking for.

Every healer should have that option. You can have the option to Glare spam and it not interfere with your ability to clear, while also having the option for more. That way, anyone who likes the style and appearance of the job can still enjoy it. Why do you hate the idea that anyone can enjoy anything?

[Renathras]

14 people did so far it seems

Well, it proves what I always say: All it takes to get likes here is to lie about and caricature anything I say, and the more absurd and ridiculous it is, the more likes it will get. I should try it sometime.

But I've about decided the best way to handle this nonsense is just to say:

"I didn't say that, we're done here" and just not acknowledge it any further since it's useless to try actually explaining it since the people that hate me don't give a damn what the truth is. It's like a cult at this point. Which is kind of amusing when you think about it. But it means such people are beyond reason. So trying reason with them is a fool's errand. That's been my problem all this time, I've been trying to engage with people who have no care for actual truth or reason. So, it's time I just stop doing so, I think.

Every healer should have that option. You can have the option to Glare spam and it not interfere with your ability to clear, while also having the option for more. That way, anyone who likes the style and appearance of the job can still enjoy it. Why do you hate the idea that anyone can enjoy anything?

Hm.

No. That's the problem. Not unless we tune the numbers so that not using the extra buttons does the same damage, something that everyone would be adamantly against.

I'm not the one that hates the idea anyone can enjoy anything, though. That's your position. "Oh, you like WHM but you don't like a damage rotation but you still want to perform optimally and that's what you enjoy? Yeah, you don't get to enjoy that anymore. Because I say so."

[ty_taurus]

Hm.

No. That's the problem. Not unless we tune the numbers so that not using the extra buttons does the same damage, something that everyone would be adamantly against.

I'm not the one that hates the idea anyone can enjoy anything, though. That's your position. "Oh, you like WHM but you don't like a damage rotation but you still want to perform optimally and that's what you enjoy? Yeah, you don't get to enjoy that anymore. Because I say so."

Then I presume you are exclusively a speed runner when it comes to video games, because if a requirement for you is that you must perform as optimally as the game will allow, then that means all games must be completed as quickly and efficiently as possible, and anything less is just being bad. If we look at those Kingdom Hearts video examples, you would be video 3 correct? Beating the boss in 1 minute by using the most efficient strategy possible rather than the other two that took around 8 minutes to beat the boss. The person in the second video who was defeating the boss "with style" is, in your description, playing badly because they are intentionally not playing as optimally as possible.

[Sebazy]

No. That's the problem. Not unless we tune the numbers so that not using the extra buttons does the same damage, something that everyone would be adamantly against.

That's working out so well for AST right now (Granted it's also insufferable to play for extended periods but still).