Dark Knight needs serious help

[Oizen]

I also think it would be far healthier for the game to do a blanket nerf to self sustain, WAR being the top of the list.

[Shurrikhan]

I also think it would be far healthier for the game to do a blanket nerf to self sustain, WAR being the top of the list.

By this, do you mean all of self-sustain (anything that keeps you alive longer, which therefore includes mitigation, too), or specifically just self-healing?



Random thought:

• If we were to just remove the heal over time from Shake it Off, that'd cost WAR almost ~12% of its sustain provided across most fights, but the original effect is still ~16%.
• On that note, though, of the two... which is really the more thematic? The reactive and slightly more time-sensitive effect (the HoT), or the preemptive and arguably less time-sensitive if used outside of when it makes the difference between life and death (the shield lasting 30s)?
• :: This is not to suggest that these are our only options. Almost anything is worth considering; I'd just like each job's thematics to be part of that sustain-nerf discussion.

[Oizen]

By this, due you mean all of self-sustain (anything that keeps you alive longer, which therefore includes mitigation, too), or specifically just self-healing?

Starting with healing affects across a the entire party, self healing isn't as big of a deal, but being able to heal other players is the issue, from non healer jobs anyway.
The AOE heals of WAR and PLD are currently the backbone of parties that have cleared high end content with no healer.

So for the case of WAR, the problematic skills are Shake it Off and Nascent Flash.
Nascent being a double dip and allowing WAR to act as a healer on jobs that are only taking raidwide damage is massive, and vastly outvalues other tank defensives when placed on another ally.
Shake honestly just didn't need the buff it got. The HoT effect is really strong, and makes it outpace DRK and GNB's strictly mitigation raidwide tools.

PLD is in a similar boat but not to the extreme WAR is.

[Rithy255]

Starting with healing affects across a the entire party, self healing isn't as big of a deal, but being able to heal other players is the issue, from non healer jobs anyway.
The AOE heals of WAR and PLD are currently the backbone of parties that have cleared high end content with no healer.

So for the case of WAR, the problematic skills are Shake it Off and Nascent Flash.
Nascent being a double dip and allowing WAR to act as a healer on jobs that are only taking raidwide damage is massive, and vastly outvalues other tank defensives when placed on another ally.
Shake honestly just didn't need the buff it got. The HoT effect is really strong, and makes it outpace DRK and GNB's strictly mitigation raidwide tools.

PLD is in a similar boat but not to the extreme WAR is.

I think PLD's main issue is the self healing from ur magic attacks more then anything, Divine veil is fine as it is, Clemency is niche anyway if your using it in place of a healer it can work, but it's at least a massive downside to paladin and you'll generally still want at least *one* healer, Holy shelltron / Intervention healing is fine, Magic attack healing can go in place of a little bit of healing somewhere else... (just not to the amount it already does per minute).

Warriors way over tuned right now, Its got DMG, good Self sustain, good defensives, even better group healing, the best invul, Even it's rotation is super easy. I feel like warrior needs a overhaul in its identity Why is it the "group healing sustain tank" it really doesn't fit warrior at all. Also it's AOE healing in dungeons is absurd, dungeons maybe "ez baby content" but warrior shouldn't be able to just solo mob packs without a healer with zero DMG loss. It's easy to make bloodwhetting's healing effect single target even if warriors would dislike that, I think healers deserve to actually heal.

I think another major issue is just healing in general, Support abilities on tanks are a good thing I actually encourage more of that, Tanks shouldn't just be "more hp DPS" It comes down to a issue on how fights are designed for healers.

In a Ideal world I'd say Healers and Tanks should both be able to keep high amounts of utility but currently there just isn't a lot of outgoing DMG in fights to demand all the utility and amounts of healing buttons healers get.

[Shurrikhan]

I think PLD's main issue is the self healing from ur magic attacks more then anything

Agreed. I feel like the core of any tank's "free" sustain should be timing-sensitive (e.g., percentile mitigation or restoration [think Death Strike]).

I don't mind forms of "flat" sustain (healing or mitigation that is not sensitive to timing in any practical sense / has little risk of overhealing or expiring before consumption) having an opportunity cost, as found on Clemency, or frequent and modular access as on Divine Might's Holy Spirit, but... just making sure you're not topped and/or are MTing before using Req phase? Ehh...

And for that to be a hefty portion of overall sustain? Or the likes of Brutal Shell, Storm's Path, and Souleater, where the healing is barely movable and barely noticeable? All that seems mostly a waste, tbh.

Yet, having said that, I'd be fine with, say, Warrior and/or Dark Knight having significant healing (something we usually consider not particularly sensitive to timing, except between two-shots)... as long as it supplied some other way of making that incentivize certain timings that required a degree of contextual awareness, etc., etc., thereby making it timing-sensitive in practice.

[Amenara]

Nevermind them soloing dungeons, a WAR solo'd the normal raids on release.

As did PLD and GNB, also a PLD soloed P2N all during the patch cycle they released. I think the issue then was the raids moreso than the tanks (other than DRK still having a garbage invuln back then which thankfully got fixed).

[Marxam]

Agreed. I feel like the core of any tank's "free" sustain should be timing-sensitive (e.g., percentile mitigation or restoration [think Death Strike]).

I don't mind forms of "flat" sustain (healing or mitigation that is not sensitive to timing in any practical sense / has little risk of overhealing or expiring before consumption) having an opportunity cost, as found on Clemency, or frequent and modular access as on Divine Might's Holy Spirit, but... just making sure you're not topped and/or are MTing before using Req phase? Ehh...

And for that to be a hefty portion of overall sustain? Or the likes of Brutal Shell, Storm's Path, and Souleater, where the healing is barely movable and barely noticeable? All that seems mostly a waste, tbh.

Yet, having said that, I'd be fine with, say, Warrior and/or Dark Knight having significant healing (something we usually consider not particularly sensitive to timing, except between two-shots)... as long as it supplied some other way of making that incentivize certain timings that required a degree of contextual awareness, etc., etc., thereby making it timing-sensitive in practice.

That's honestly why I preferred the ShB NF version. It was a heal on dmg dealt, not gcd used so you can really pump out some heals, but on the flip side if you time it wrong you basically get nothing. Imo its unfair to say that tanks and healers are too strong when the content doesn't match it. If all content outside of savage and ultimate hit just 10% harder I think the stronger tools we have now might justify it.

I also think it would be far healthier for the game to do a blanket nerf to self sustain, WAR being the top of the list.

WAR's healing has already been nerfed to the ground. Imo not just self sustain but mitigation as a whole. You shouldn't be taking 0 dmg when you pop TBN for a tb and likewise healing back to full on a single target is too much. Imo the regen to EQ was too much as I would have opted for ToB's cd be reduced to 60 secs instead. Regens is more of a GNB thing anyways and WAR is about the burst. Same sentiment for the regen to SiO as I would have preferred a 1-2% buff to the initial shield and dispel effects.

[Payadopa]

Man, ya'll just really want tanks to be helpless without healers, don't you?

That's the point of a trinity game. Why do WARs take away a healer's main function? So healers can spam their one ability and DoT? That stuff works both ways I think.

[Supersnow845]

That's the point of a trinity game. Why do WARs take away a healer's main function? So healers can spam their one ability and DoT? That stuff works both ways I think.

Healers always get the short end of the stick

“Why should I be helpless without a healer” “well why should a healer be a literal vestigial role with a WAR”, hell if I’m the healer and I zone in with a WAR I’d rather just be allowed to swap to BLM

[Somnolence]

It is indeed funny how when in new EX my co-tank DRK was eating dirt due healer not topping him for White Hole while 8x WAR can easily clear it https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1945423090 as they can self heal through that