Which Job, in your opinion, has the biggest identity issue?

[Absimiliard]

That's exactly what I think when Squall comes to mind. He's the main character wielding the melee weapon. Also don't forget there are elements of Seifer in GNB, too.

I mean if it's not Squall who is the tank? Angelo?

I'm trying to figure out where the idea of Squall being a tank comes from. Simply put, he's a cannon without the glass. His LBs, choice of weapon, and even what we see him do in cutscenes all indicate he's an extremely offense-oriented fighter, with little to no thought given to defense. He doesn't exactly go out of his way to protect others, either.

As for who's the tank? Nobody. That isn't how the old games worked. You might have a character that's slightly more durable than others, but that did not make it "the tank." The closest to a tank we see in the old games is Cecil courtesy of his armor selection and Cover command, but he was also capable of some of the highest damage output.

[TaleraRistain]

I'm trying to figure out where the idea of Squall being a tank comes from. Simply put, he's a cannon without the glass. His LBs, choice of weapon, and even what we see him do in cutscenes all indicate he's an extremely offense-oriented fighter, with little to no thought given to defense. He doesn't exactly go out of his way to protect others, either.

As for who's the tank? Nobody. That isn't how the old games worked. You might have a character that's slightly more durable than others, but that did not make it "the tank." The closest to a tank we see in the old games is Cecil courtesy of his Cover command, but he was also capable of some of the highest damage output.

Story wise he does. He's Rinoa's protector as a sorceress the way Seifer is Edea's.

[TheDustyOne]

It's not worth looking at FF8 and asking who the tank/healer/dps are in the group simply because of how that game was designed. Squall could easily be a tank, healer, or DPS depending on junctions, typically all three because that game was bonkers in balance.

GNB is a tank because ShB needed a new tank job. GNB could just as easily have been a melee DPS with maiming or striking gear. Squall being Rinoas 'Knight' is the justification we have symbolically for why we have GNB as a tank.

[Absimiliard]

Squall being Rinoas 'Knight' is the justification we have symbolically for why we have GNB as a tank.

Story wise he does. He's Rinoa's protector as a sorceress the way Seifer is Edea's.

Then by that logic DRG should have been a tank. The original dragoons were protectors. You know, when they weren't being mind controlled.

<Obligatory floor tank meme here>

[TheDustyOne]

You arguably could have DRG as a tank, older games did have it wearing the same gear as Knights and Warriors. It's a DPS in this game because the game at the time needed DPS.

Same thing with DRK being a DPS and SAM being a tank

[TaleraRistain]

Then by that logic DRG should have been a tank. The original dragoons were protectors.

<Obligatory floor tank meme here>

And so was Zidane but he was a rogue. It makes sense when you consider there's a lot of D&D logic baked into the FF formula. The more strength based heavy hitter is usually the meat shield while the agile fighters are the damage support.

[Absimiliard]

And so was Zidane but he was a rogue. It makes sense when you consider there's a lot of D&D logic baked into the FF formula. The more strength based heavy hitter is usually the meat shield while the agile fighters are the damage support.

And yet Squall utilized an agile fighting style instead of brute force.

[TheDustyOne]

An agile fighting style doesn't mean that they can't have defensive qualities. Zidane specifically has abilities to redirect damage from party members to himself (even if only for female party members), despite being an agile thief, which is why Talera brought him up.

GNB in this game is a bit of an 'agile tank' in that it has a high APM requirement in Continuation and oGCD count, that's part of its mechanical identity in this game. If I could redesign anything about tanking in this game, I'd love for evasion tanking to be a thing. It'd be perfect for a job like GNB as an agile tank. That said, executing such a concept would be very difficult to achieve and would have massive balance issues.

Fun fact; Renzokuken in FFVIII means Continuous Sword. Continuation is just a different localization of that Limit Break.

[Absimiliard]

An agile fighting style doesn't mean that they can't have defensive qualities. Zidane specifically has abilities to redirect damage from party members to himself (even if only for female party members), despite being an agile thief, which is why Talera brought him up.

Nor did I say or in any way imply they can't. I brought that it up specifically as a counter to the notion relying on brute force is indicative of being a tank. In reality, many jobs one would certainly write off as DPS utilize pure strength for their damage. Likewise, some jobs (like NIN in FFXI) that are agility based in fact work as tanks.

Regardless, few of the characteristics Squall -- or Seifer, for that matter -- displays in FF8 really fall in line with what one would consider being a tank. Quite literally the only justification for GNB being a tank is the sorceress knight bit, and that's a pretty weak leg to stand on.

The above aside, it's really a pity we didn't get Lion Heart in some form. >_> I mean, we got a weapon with the name at least, but it in no way resembled its namesake. Maybe they'll had more strokes to Continuation down the line or at least give us that final swing of Lion Heart as an attack.

[TheDustyOne]

While I get that mechanically Squall or Seifer weren't tanks, FFVIII in general just wasn't designed for such party dynamics. Zell could just as easily be a tank as the Monk of that game. The reason that GNB is a tank is because the game needed a tank, and symbolically we can justify that with Squall and Seifer being knights, nothing more.

Also yeah, Lion Heart would be nice. Maybe as a lvl 100 capstone skill?

Also, sorry if it feels like I'm talking past you. I agree that we can't call Squall and Seifer tanks, just that we can still justify GNB being a tank despite being based on them.