A few questions for the BLM mains/enjoyers

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

And I would say that in a world where raising isn't that important, what summoner brings to the table is the only caster DPS in the entire game designed to play in the fights the devs are actually designing.

You mean the only "Caster" DPS that pretends to be a Caster when it isn't anymore? The original challenge about Casters was finding good windows and spots to cast, pre-positioning was their niche where melee had positionals and Physical Ranged were the movement gods. Summoner is an outlier that should be purged, not a baseline that should be adopted for the other casters.

[Llugen]

...Or, to put it another way, they made BLM the literal best DPS class in the game and people still aren't playing it...

The primary issue with BLM in this way is that it takes A LOT more work to play it at its best than other jobs require. An exceptional BLM can outdamage an exceptional SAM by a slightly-too-small margin, but has to do MUCH more work and generally adapt entire party strats around it (I'm looking at you Bonds 1 and Superchain 1) to do so. Meanwhile, a "good" SAM will outdamage a "good" BLM pretty much every time. I appreciate that there can be cool and niche speedkilling BLM strats on some level, but they are inaccessible to 99.9% of the playerbase, and that is not well thought-out. Throw the uncertainty of PUG life/PF strats into the mix, and of course you're not going to get a high percentage of players going for the class with high work and risk with proportionally little reward.

...If melee wasnt so dominant that you do double melee or bust AND if Summoner wasn't disrespecting the role by essentially being a physical Ranged DPS in caster gear and actually had a modicum of casting let alone skill requirement, you'd see a better balance between Caster jobs...

Big agree, SAM unironically has more casts per minute than SMN does. And as an aside, I also agree they should probably remove verraise and resurrection and should just make raise a kind of "duty action" that has a big cooldown like 60-120s, so if both healers down the group isn't SCREWED but you can't spam it. Or they could just suck it up and give BLM some kind of access to raise already, because for the sake of the role it is important that it has access to the things the others in the role have. Maybe just like a 60s cooldown that costs all your mana or something crappy so you don't WANT to use it but it's better than wiping if healer(s) dead. And remember, Fantasy/Lore™ should never ever outweigh actual game mechanics.

...And you can't use the argument that RDM is somehow a hard class to play, because it's truly not.

Don't even get me started about scorch and resolution. Can't wait for them to add a third in DT.

...what summoner brings to the table is the only caster DPS in the entire game designed to play in the fights the devs are actually designing.

I half agree with this. BLM at 90 has the tools to deal with the heavy movement mechanics like Bonds 3, LOTL/Shadowed Messengers, Archaic Rockbreaker, etc. but it doesn't feel good... they keep buffing Xenoglossy damage which is fine but the cognitive dissonance is palpable when you don't actually get to USE your big damage spell charges in buff windows- you have to save them for movement, and then Manafont drifts because it also is poorly designed at the moment (see other thread/below).

I fully agree that the virtually castless design of SMN right now does not feel right. The FANTASY of the class is downright fantastic, and they nailed the rotation so well in fact that it's... boring (a FAR cry from SMN in literally any other iteration). Hopefully 7.0 will bring about changes that will add more actual casts, such as after phoenix you get Leviathan/Ramuh/Shiva and those have more cast time oriented spells, etc. But all this aside, I am less concerned about it because an exceptional SMN (if there even really is such a thing anymore lol) is still pretty considerably behind even a "good" BLM. I am slightly nervous about potential rebalancing in 6.5 that may change my view on this, but for now it is reasonable.



But getting back to what should actually change on BLM:


-I would like to see something more interesting done with Thunder. Years ago now I suggested that Thunder should be additive to 60s on the boss (like death's design), I might throw that out again as a potential thought, that way fewer ticks are lost.

-I also still really want to see Thundercloud and Firestarter stored on the job gauge and stack up to 3. This is far overdue, and we are ready. This would also be great for vets and new players alike because then you new players don't get as punished for overwriting their firestarter at level 50 (and movement can be better planned ahead this way, frankly) and vets can strategize better as well.

-I said before in this thread that I DON'T want a 2 minute "nuke ready" buff, but it would be nice to have at least something for opener burst damage on the job... getting unlucky with crits and then watching it take 90 full seconds for me to hit 2nd/3rd on enmity list feels real bad for a "high damage" class (basically no reason to play BLM in hunt trains unless they're taking 90+ seconds to die when you can press like 5 buttons on SMN and profit).

-An "Astral Stasis" button like Meditate as mentioned previously in this thread would be nice as well, maybe it also charges Polyglot faster somehow (think like Shoha).

-I'm still a big sucker for Between the Lines movement strategies (think Sepulture racecar knockback saves), so BtL resetting the recast timer on Aetherial Manipulation would also really cool, and valuable in high movement/precise moments (once again looking at you, Superchain 1).

-A summarization from my other thread, but Manafont should be a "buff" like Excogitation, granting you the MP when you hit zero, to reduce drift and frontload off-GCD pressing. Again see other thread.

-Agree with whoever said the range of BLM AOE spells should probably increase.. doesn't need to be MASSIVE massive but maybe 7-8y instead of 5y, might help make dungeon optimization slightly more accessible to newer players.

-See earlier posts for potential changes to leveling rotations (pre-despair, the manafont change, etc)

-I am hesitant to touch Blizzard III because I do think it is interesting that the class has non-standard gameplay options, but if the devs decide that they don't like this, then Blizzard III out of Astral at 0 MP could give some kind of like... stacks of "Sheer Ice" or something that makes it so your ice Paradox and Blizzard IV (or maybe just the next 3 spells while ice phase is active or something) get increased potency to discourage transpose.

-They could also make the MP regen from Umbral Ice no longer tied to the server tick, as it really should be at this point honestly, so that way we never have to sweat bad MP ticks.

-Kind of minor and pissy but why is Manaward a 2 minute CD while Radiant Aegis gets TWO charges and another per MINUTE while also lasting TEN seconds longer...?




Things I DON'T want for BLM:


-2 minute "nuke ready" a la ogi namikiri/starfall dance

-a second charge of manafont as it currently stands, or like another sharpcast charge or something (lol)

-another increase to Enochian's damage percent increase (so boring)

[Turtledeluxe]

I fondly remember the thread about BLM dps and how many raiders told me that BLM could never be top DPS because it would break the game. Pretty funny to see nothing is broken and the class isn't experiencing any kind of notable uptick. It's almost like BLM being high DPS makes total sense given that it's a selfish DPS with the kind of gameplay it has. Happy to see devs agreed with the feedback despite me and others getting absolutely roasted.

[OgruMogru]

People get really sweaty about the fact blm has no raise and so can't cover for their mistakes in prog. It's a them problem not a blm problem. Caster res is a bribe.

[Alex1337]

Fix MP ticks either show me them or 0 them until I get into UI idk just fix them, otherwise BLM fine BLM borderline too strong.

[Llugen]

...It's a them problem not a blm problem. Caster res is a bribe.

I would agree with this, except that I'm the one who gets to wipe my incredible run because the healers ate shit and I can't do anything to save them, and everyone sighs wishing there was a RDM/SMN. If raise is something that the role is expected to do, then BLM deserves access to it, period.

...otherwise BLM fine BLM borderline too strong.

Sorry for the salt, but spoken like a true SAM main who continues to benefit from melee uptime META (which is correct, but not the point) and pretty much dominates dance partner, and who nobody has any qualms with taking in their party since they don't need any specific strats and their role isn't responsible for back-up raise.

The amount more work that BLM is than SAM demands that it be stronger, and by a larger margin than it currently is, doubly so when it demands changing entire strats to accommodate.

[Alex1337]

I would agree with this, except that I'm the one who gets to wipe my incredible run because the healers ate shit and I can't do anything to save them, and everyone sighs wishing there was a RDM/SMN. If raise is something that the role is expected to do, then BLM deserves access to it, period.




Sorry for the salt, but spoken like a true SAM main who continues to benefit from melee uptime META (which is correct, but not the point) and pretty much dominates dance partner, and who nobody has any qualms with taking in their party since they don't need any specific strats and their role isn't responsible for back-up raise.

The amount more work that BLM is than SAM demands that it be stronger, and by a larger margin than it currently is, doubly so when it demands changing entire strats to accommodate.

You checked my profile and saw most of my clears are on SAM, did you also see that I play plenty of BLM? Albeit not that much this tier. I see 0 SAM ones on yours to make the sweeping statement that BLM needs far more work than SAM, i'm not saying its not true, because by in large it definitely does I'm just saying I have a basis to compare and it would appear you, well, don't, I, however, am also no professional at either job i just press buttons. Looking at YOUR profile it would also seem like you play bog standard BLM, i'm not sure if that's what you mean by more work? Having to do P12 door boss para 1 behind the tanks if clones end up south? Having to either preposition your LL on P10 bonds 1 or line it with the bridge so you ibtl? NOT stacking with the group for light tether on p11? None of that is particularly complicated, lets not act like you need a phd to do any of those things. And, not to be salty myself but using transpose lines and a bit of foresight can really help with movement. If we're talking rotation, the 'standard' BLM rotation isn't exactly rocket science.

I just think the 6.4 buff was tone deaf and over the top and just widened the gap by far too much undermining both SMN and RDM massively, I know a large number of the game's BLM populus won't agree though which is fine and, I'm not interested in how that compares to SAM or any melee for that matter I think if you were going to buff BLM by ANOTHER 3% in 6.4, the same should have been true for the other 2 casters. I also heavily disagree that the gap should be wider than it currently is, its already very wide that's just some 'my job should always be stronger' cope, there's literally no objectivity in that statement and just indicative of someone who plays 1 job and 1 job only in a game where there's like a million(-999981). But who knows maybe you will tell me this is your alt or something, the perfect line.

Partner domination is an entirely different conversation, for BLM to get within top 3 prio, they would HAVE to give them damaging ogcds and foolproof looping rotation which they do not currently have either of because they simply wouldnt work outside triplecast or a UI phase (former), which you wouldnt want to be in during devilment. BLM simply doesn't benefit from devilment as much as Melee that have ogcds every other gcd and basically loop perfectly every 2 min, if they wanted BLM to be a viable partner too much of their kit would need to change or too much of others jobs' would.

Regarding your comment of 'qualms', I have never had any issue with joining a random group as BLM, is that an NA thing?

[OgruMogru]

I would agree with this, except that I'm the one who gets to wipe my incredible run because the healers ate shit and I can't do anything to save them, and everyone sighs wishing there was a RDM/SMN. If raise is something that the role is expected to do, then BLM deserves access to it, period.

In that case it was the healer's fault not yours so you framing it as *you* causing the wipe is silly. SC1 leylines and bonds leylines really don't require that much effort to accommodate and I feel like the main reason people are so unwilling to cooperate with BLMs is because there's a bit of simmering resentment that they aren't playing a job that can fix other people's mistakes. No caster should have a raise. If anything the "caster" res should be a long cooldown ogcd skill that you have to apply before a player takes lethal damage, like excog but it still applies weakness, but even then I only think that's appropriate for smn with their phoenix kit. I also think blms should be shifted into taking a melee spot by default because this solves so many of their uptime/movement problems. I admit I always get a real smug sense of satisfaction if I get a dnc partner in content but at optimal play it really is better used on other classes for all the reasons Alex said. Constant goalpost moving and pretending all the concern is about helping new and less confident Blm players and then lo' and behold the issue is actually just pure insecurity because no one will dance with you.

[Valence]

What I love the most in those discussions is how it mirrors perfectly real life conditions. People would rather fight each other between roles, arguing that theirs is harder to play and therefore deserve more damage or whatever, than band up together to face the devs in order to have some kind of unified balance.

[MikoRemi]

Welcome to life as a Warrior, we really should be working to make the game better rather than have a contest of whose better but god forbid you say something without being labeled as "having it better" and somehow being labeled as a gatekeeper.
It comes in waves with some classes with bad patches and good patches, some just never get those real good patches though which should be addressed, but getting people to be as unified as the Samurai's with Kaiten is about as likely as Kaiten coming back soon(I wish it would).