Cute Little Lore prediction: Lunar Subterrane to feature the Fathercrystal

[Iscah]

Were we ever even told that vision was of Zodiark's crystal? I took it at the time to mean "something's going to happen that will corrupt the Mothercrystal", on par with having a vision of a known character dying or something.

[Cleretic]

Were we ever even told that vision was of Zodiark's crystal? I took it at the time to mean "something's going to happen that will corrupt the Mothercrystal", on par with having a vision of a known character dying or something.

They never said... anything about it, really. Definitely not in the game, and I don't think they've ever discussed it in development interviews either, but there's been an awful lot of those over the years. Everything saying it was Zodiark was ultimately just assumption from context, albeit fairly plausible given that context: if all the raving Lahabrea was going on about balance was at that point actually supposed to be accurate as opposed to 'he got pretty close for being crazy', then it made sense that what we were seeing in this cutscene right after that fight was the counterbalance to Hydaelyn. That's ultimately circumstantial evidence, but when we're talking dramatic narrative then circumstantial evidence is the best kind.

I feel like I far prefer what we've got to what we could have, because I think 'there must be balance' is contrived and arbitrary as a plot point every time I see it (I blame Star Wars), but ultimately we just don't know what they were planning back then, save that it wasn't what we got. All I can say with confidence about it is that it was probably abandoned for a reason, and when it's a plot thing like this it's probably not for logistical reasons. I love cut content in games, but a big thing we always have to remember when looking at those is that things often hit the cutting room floor because they're just not as good as the stuff that didn't; there's every possibility that this plot idea was thrown out because it sucked.

[Lunaxia]

They never said... anything about it, really..

I mean, I feel like Zodiark's existence being vaguely defined as a Problem that Affects Things because of his primal nature when Hydaelyn is a complete non-issue despite tearing apart the very fabric of the universe and rewriting the laws of reality in accordance with her wishes to be a lot more arbitrary than exploring the effects both primals may have (had) on each other and the world, but to each their own, I guess. I would have liked more from their relationship with one another. Even Venat and Elidibus barely came into contact with each other.... actually, I don't think they ever did.

And if they bothered to implement a scene about it, I'd be more inclined to believe it was a matter of logistics than anything else. Most things they include either wind up getting addressed (sometimes much later, hi Heart of Sabik) or explained why it couldn't work. My assumption would be any development of Zodiark hit a wall after Emet-Selch's popularity and they looked around for the nearest thing they could woobify next, and Elidibus found himself in the firing line.

[Cleretic]

My assumption would be any development of Zodiark hit a wall after Emet-Selch's popularity and they looked around for the nearest thing they could woobify next, and Elidibus found himself in the firing line.

Your assumption doesn't work, because of what we know about the development of the game: they outline the next expansion a couple months after the release of the previous one (and of course, the ideas didn't come from nowhere before that point). They literally just wouldn't have had the time to introduce major elements into Endwalker based on fan response from Shadowbringers. I usually bring that up to point out that Elpis couldn't have been a response to Emet's popularity and was instead one hell of a called shot, but it's true here too: the Zodiark and Hydaelyn conflict in Endwalker (and Shadowbringers' patches) couldn't have been significantly restructured based on 'oh people turned out to really like this one character in Shadowbringers'.

What's interesting is that they have said that they increased Emet's role in Endwalker because of his popularity. That doesn't say they added him to Endwalker, he was already there somewhere. The best guess I've heard is that he got the 'narrator' role because of it; he's too important to Elpis' structure to have been more minor there, and I can't think of a version of the Ultima Thule finale that has someone other than him that still works, but the narrator role is something they could give him without needing to reorganize things.

[Lunaxia]

Your assumption doesn't work, because of what we know about the development of the game.

If they outline the next expansion after the release of the previous one, then Shadowbringers' reception would have had an effect on Endwalker. They've discussed how they went on a writers' retreat to work out Endwalker's story at the end of 2019, and considering by that point the idea of two expansion packs was still in the air, it's evident there was massive restructuring going on at that time that would have been directly influenced by ShB's success. Ishikawa herself stated she practically rewrote the entire thing over the course of several days, so there's no saying what the story resembled prior to that, and presumably the course of the 5.x patches were tailored to follow suit.

...I also can't really imagine thinking Elpis, home to some of the wonkiest writing in the entire game, was added in as anything other than a prime opportunity for gratuitous fanservice at some of its finest. To go back in time in some fashion? Sure, but there was every way open to us to do it in a much less awkward and convoluted fashion than we did, only they didn't give us the chance for our character to wind up Emet-Selch for several hours, lol.

I'm aware we're all in the same realm of pure speculation in terms of what we think might have gone on and what was and wasn't included and why, and none of us will ever know for certain unless they tell us outright, but the faint hand of ShB's success and its effects on the game's writing is really palpable to me when I compare the writing and pacing of the story pre-5.0 and after, to the degree I'm a little mystified by people who claim they don't see it. We all have our own standards and preferences, I suppose.

[Cleretic]

and considering by that point the idea of two expansion packs was still in the air, it's evident there was massive restructuring going on at that time that would have been directly influenced by ShB's success. Ishikawa herself stated she practically rewrote the entire thing over the course of several days, so there's no saying what the story resembled prior to that, and presumably the course of the 5.x patches were tailored to follow suit.

I'm gonna need your citation for this, because to my knowledge they'd already combined Theoretical Garlemald Expansion and Theoretical Apocalypse Expansion well before any planning, in that retreat or otherwise, was put to pen. Which, of course, makes sense when you consider that the fact we know Anima was Theoretical Garlemald Expansion's final boss--meaning that the Telophoroi were always present in that part--and that Thavnair straddles the line between both stories in a way where it couldn't have landed on either side of that line. I have heard of that rewrite, but as I recall, it was less structural and more tonal; the events, characters and all that everyone was generally happy with, the problem was that it felt like 'just another expansion' rather than the storyline finale that they wanted it to be. Given all that I actually suspect the bulk of her rewrites would've actually been in Labyrinthos/Sharlayan and Ultima Thule, but I don't like speculating on real-world events like that without evidence.

I caution against baselessly fabricating reasons why things turned out in ways you like or didn't like about how a game turns out, because you've every chance of being wrong and leading yourself down a false path that's only going to lead to disappointment. What if Dawntrail comes out absent of anything you've blamed for Endwalker not pleasing you, like FFXVI's next-door development or that boogeyman that is The Rewrite, and you don't like that one either? Are you going to find more phantom events to blame, or are you going to accept that the developers might just have a different idea of how to write their story than you do?

You're allowed to not like the game's story, but perhaps in doing so you should try to accept that there might not be something else to blame for that.

[Lunaxia]

I'm gonna need your citation for this, because to my knowledge they'd already combined Theoretical Garlemald Expansion and Theoretical Apocalypse Expansion well before any planning, in that retreat or otherwise, was put to pen.

Apparently not.

https://www.fanbyte.com/news/ffxiv-e...two-expansions

Yoshida explained that during the development of Shadowbringers, the team felt it might be possible to extend the end of the Hydaelyn-Zodiark saga for two expansions. After the response to Shadowbringers, however, it was ultimately decided a single expansion would be a better option.

Yoshida also revealed the executive team had a retreat towards the end of 2019 to hash out Endwalker’s story. Following the retreat, however, Ishikawa felt the planned plot wasn’t good enough for the finale, so she rewrote the entire story and got it in two days before the hard deadline for the cinematic team.

“I was in charge of filling in the details of the story elements, but when I looked at the structure of the content again, I thought, ‘this might be okay for just another expansion, but if this is labeled the ‘finale’ is it really okay?’ So I reworked the story from the plot outline,” she said.

Nothing especially "phantom" about that. Sounds like a considerable overhaul to me, and aligns with what I've always suspected to be true - that maintaining their usual standard of consistency and quality in their writing was made second to making a big enough splash with their ending.

I caution against baselessly fabricating...

I find it comical and more than a little arrogant for you to accuse me "baselessly" fabricating anything, not only because this is the lore forum and all we do here is meaninglessly speculate, but because you tout your own ideas with precious little in the way of evidence behind them as near unequivocal truths. You seem to forget we're all in the same boat here, as I've said, and just because my reasoning led me to less favorable conclusions than yours does not make them any less valid.

I appreciate the "concern" about as much as the thinly veiled insults, but it's neither wanted nor needed. I'm aware of what Endwalker was - more than you, apparently - what FFXIV is these days, and what that means for Dawntrail. I'm merely sharing thoughts and chatting like everyone else.