I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!

[Mikey_R]

Note, I have swapped the 2 halves of the original quote around. I just feel it would be better going this route for how I want to structure my post.

As for jobs I would argue got good changes, if you specifically want EW then I would say paradox, paradox was a fantastic addition (surprise surprise it’s on BLM), it changes the way you interact with each of your lines, opens up new line opportunities and also doubles as a movement tool, you can even create whole free movement rotations around spamming paradox, that one skill alone completely evolved how you can interact with BLM

If we go back further I’d argue what HW added to WHM was fantastic, WHM always struggled against SCH in ARR because SCH could more easily abuse cleric stance, giving WHM 3 oGCD’s that each have a different function and also buffed WHM’s damage quite significantly is an example of a change where they knew exactly what was wrong with a job and made simple changes to it that completely changed how you interact with it as a job.

Not going to lie, I was expecting more examples, just to have a bit of a better idea of where the bar sits (and I was implying from all expansions). To start with, Paradox on BLM is quite a unique case. I guarantee the multitude of lines that BLM got with Paradox were not expected and not planned around, it has just come from players playing around and, because it isn't much of a DPS loss (maybe even a gain in the right situations, not a BLM main so speculating) it makes it viable. The flexibility of BLM's rotation helps as well. If you were to just look at what the expected usage of it is, all it really was mechanically is an instacast GCD in UI, which can also refresh UI3. In AF, it just replaces a Fire 1 cast. You can see why this is a weird one. When looking at what the intention was, it doesn't add much but a bit of utility in UI, however, you also cannot ignore the increased, (likely unintentional) flexibility added. You can see why this would be hard, if not impossible, to add something with this much potential to any job (and it definately couldn't be done every expansion).

As for WHM, this is a case of an expansion adding something that was missing, however, you can only do that so much as at some point, everything that the job needs will be added, so, what do you do after that? It is interesting you chose HW for WHM.

So, specifically for yourself, it is hard to pin down what you expect to be added and what is considered too little.

The thing is what different mechanics, as of right now the only thing that distinguishes the 3 current primals is movement,...

Which then leads onto the comments about SMN. Obviously, the summons themselves would be VFX changes, however it is how they interact with Astral Flow and Gemshine that affects the gameplay experience. Assuming all summons are different, you effectively have 2 different rotations between the demi phases which changes every minute. For Gemshine in demi phases, it could be that they have a cast time, but with higher potency, so it is a choice between the ruin or gemshine cast, which can be affected by whether you need to use an oGCD, or movement, which can turn into thinking is there a point where I need to move so that I can use the instacast and the oGCDs at the same time to get more hardcasts off.

However, this is the sort of level all jobs have been getting for each expansion, short of reworks and the odd occasional impactful action. The whole idea behind the exercise of really looking at what jobs got each expansion was to highlight that, nothing really changes much. Just small things added each expansion to get what we have now. SMN has many avenues of expansion as has been detailed, whether you agree that they would be meaningful or impactful is irrelevant, but they are avenues that can be utilised. To go away from SMN for a bit, say we pick another job that hasn't been reworked, like DRG, what would you add to that? I know the job is getting a rework, but it is getting a rework because there is nowhere for the job to go, which is why I have picked it out. This issue isn't solely on DRG either, there are many jobs that have the air of, what can they do without just updating VFX, adding something that feels tacked on, or just straight up reworking the job.

[Supersnow845]

It’s funny you mention DRG because DRG is an example of a class who’s EW changes which basically amounted to VFX changes is one of the reasons why I support the rework to DRG (note only if you forced me to give you an answer I really don’t have a strong opinion either way I’m just saying if you forced me to pick independent of anyone else)

I think Sebazy originally made the point but EW has been super stale because the formula has always been stale but it’s been hidden up until now by nature of them overhauling the combat system every expansion, now that EW is basically ShB 2.0 the system is showing how stale it is in that most classes didn’t get much of a change

Maybe this is just me who has played this game for so long I’m used to mammoth changes to classes each expansion so “one more finisher or oGCD or maybe a potency change” doesn’t really cut it as expansion spanning job changes, I made this point with ren but I’m totally happy to admit this might be an unpopular opinion but to me the changes that would constitute expansion based changes are things SMN is really going to struggle to pull out of the hat because of its restrictive design (which I bought up with aravell’s point about how MCH currently is basically SMN 1 expansion ahead)

As for more examples for large changes I guess it’s hard because I’m generally a healer main by default and I would never consider 5.0 changes good, 3.x to 4.x BRD is another example of a change that I feel overall suited the job and was a large change though I know it wasn’t the most popular change with bow mage mains, PLD’s increase use of its magic combo to create a diffuse burst window in 5.0 is another example of a positive change that had wide reaching effects

[Mikey_R]

As for more examples for large changes I guess it’s hard because I’m generally a healer main by default and I would never consider 5.0 changes good, 3.x to 4.x BRD is another example of a change that I feel overall suited the job and was a large change though I know it wasn’t the most popular change with bow mage mains, PLD’s increase use of its magic combo to create a diffuse burst window in 5.0 is another example of a positive change that had wide reaching effects

Bard was soft reworked into a caster ranged and then reworked again in SB into the basis of what we have now, with ShB and EW just building on that SB base. With that said, I wouldn't say a rework is classed as 'expanding' the job, just by it's very nature. Though you may disagree there.

However, it is funny you mention Paladin where, for it's rotation, the majority after HW are just VFX changes, with a slight blip in SB when Holy Spirit had cast times. 5xHoly Spirit just replaced 2x Royal Authority combos in SB, ShB added 3x atonement over a Royal Authority combo and replaced a Holy Spirit with Confiteor and then with EW, Spirit's Within is a VFX change (along with making it AoE) and, on release, the Blade combo is just a VFX change to Goring Blade. The only reason I can surmise that you liked these changes and don't like just upgrading skills, is because you press a different button. Nothing changes to Holy Spirit, nothing changes to Atonement etc. so they feel more impactful than they actually are.

This is why I say expectations need to be curbed. SMN isn't getting a rework, so there aren't going to be sweeping changes, DRG is and you have said you do support the rework (I would agree as it does need a new foundation). It seems you like jobs that get reworked, probably because it implies you will see bigger changes, but that isn't the expectation. Most jobs just have something tacked on, or an action upgrade, they do not go through sweeping changes. This is why people expect 'just a VFX change with slight changes' for DT SMN, because that is what happens for jobs that do not get reworked.

[Ivtrix]

Honestly all my complains about SMN would vanish overnight if they gave RDM more personal damage.

[Noumenon]

They'll just make every job as braindead as SMN