I'm One Of The Filthiests Of Casuals And Even I Can See How Dumbdown FF14 Has Become!

[Renathras]

Proceeds to not even have an argument in this post beyond “you are selfish for wanting the job to be exactly what you want”

Oh look, a thing I didn't do or say. "But you said you aren't selfish and so IMPLIED!!!" no, I said I'm not selfish and don't demand it. I didn't say anything about you or anyone else. This isn't a "I'm not touching you!!" thing. I'm not selfish when it comes to Jobs - you know this. What do I say all the time; healers, tanks, dps, it doesn't matter? That there should be something for everyone, and me not liking a thing doesn't make it bad. I hold everyone else to the same standard I hold myself to, no more and no less.

This is yet another case of you reading things into my posts that aren't there, getting mad at me for something you made up, and then thinking you can attack me over it instead of addressing my arguments themselves since you've justified that in your mind by calling me names first.

I made an argument:

There's potential and SMN is a good foundation, I suspect they will use it, though I suspect it won't be something you enjoy, that there's nothing wrong with that, and you not enjoying what they do does not make it a dead end.

Each of these things are arguments.

Now, you want me to present reasons behind the arguments. I already did:

They've literally never had a Job they didn't add something to in an expansion, and I can't see 6.X SMN being the first time they don't add something. The Job is not so locked down that there's nothing to add, and their history has been 100% of the time changing something about every Job with every expansion, so the onus is on you to prove that they won't this time.

"innovate the job" isn't it, though. You're asking me to defend arguments I haven't made but that you want to argue instead. Which of my posts did I say they would "innovate the job"? As I said three posts back, you're trying to change the subject.

ALL I was saying in reply to you like 10 posts ago was you said it was a dead end with no room for growth. That is wrong.

.

"If a man is determined to die tomorrow, he'll probably find a way to make it happen." -Ginun, to Captain Riker, Best of Both Worlds Part 1, Star Trek: The Next Generation

If you're determined to find SOMETHING in my posts to take as an insult, I can't stop you, and you will find something, even if you have to have it implied, interpreted, out outright imagine it. But then you're just using your own imagination to justify your belief that I'm trying to slight you, not my own words or my own intent. Perhaps the reason you treat me the way you do isn't anything at all to do with what I say OR how I say it, but rather, because you've decided to be insulted no matter what I say, and are just waiting for something you can use from SOME part of my posts in order to justify what you already want to be true.

[Renathras]

These two definitions are compatible with each other.

Compatible? Hm... one is a far bigger judgement call than the other.

Godmode is obviously overpowered, but "this Job is too easy for the damage output it gets" is far less obvious. The concept of something "breaking the game" is very easy to see and identify. Most people would agree that, for example, PLD Cover in PvP covering an ally while they take an objective making it impossible to prevent the objective being captured is likely not an intended feature and, with no actual counter, overpowered. But "SMN does too little effort for the amount of damage it does" is not so clear cut. How much is too much? How much is too little? Of the range that's just right, why does SMN fall outside of it? How do you specifically define easy, and how do you define TOO easy? Alternatively, how do you define TOO much damage? Can you define acceptable risk/reward damage output in terms of potency? How do you quantify (not qualify) a Job's rotational complexity to make an objective measure of effort vs reward? How much effort SHOULD be required for a unit of potency?

The other issue is that they aren't the same thing. That is, one requires something to be broken or make encounters not have the intended difficulty. SE clearly thinks that SMN (and other similarly non-complex Jobs like WAR, DNC, etc) have the adequate experience they want for the end user. That would mean they aren't overpowered.

They clearly aren't broken.

So no, I don't think the definitions are the same or really compatible with one another. Overpowered isn't "relative to effort". It's "this thing breaks the game". That isn't compatible with a definition of overpowered that IS relative to effort. Thus the two definitions are not compatible.

[Supersnow845]

^ ren I’m gonna be honest, I don’t care about you one way or another, I don’t actively dislike you because I acknowledge that underneath everything at some points you are actively trying to make legit discussions

What I don’t like is the fact that you are perhaps the only person on the forums who argues in (mostly) good faith initially that can’t take a rebuttal to your post or will reply to someone else’s post with thinly veiled insults then act offended when people bite back at you

I’ve argued for like 5 posts on here with you about the fact that changes square are likely to implement to SMN do not constitute meaningful change in my eyes, presented changes they are extremely unlikely to implement that would constitute meaningful changes in my eyes and argued based on squares job design why they are unlikely to implement them, I don’t care about arguing semantics with you over whether this counts as “potential” or not, to me this constitutes a dead end so I wrote it that way

In the same 5 posts I’ve got functionally nothing from you; I’ve already told you why I don’t see Garuda being replaced with shiva as meaningful progression of the job but you just keep reiterating it as if it’s a new point, nor have I said you are wrong for thinking that is meaningful progression (it doesn’t change my initial point that I believe the job is at a dead end). And on top of that I have been told I don’t know the definitions of things, been told I’m selfish (I’m not even going to try to argue with you about how “I’m not selfish” because of x when x and y are opposing opinions in a two way conversation implies y is selfish so I’ll just ignore that and not take offence) and then when (as usual) I have gotten sick of it and bit back you play the victim

I’m happy to have my mind changed, Reiner changes my mind daily, so does semi, forsaken roe has done it multiple times, hell even vel makes decent points now and then, they all don’t argue in a way that makes people want to actively resist your point

[fulminating]

ALL I was saying in reply to you like 10 posts ago was you said it was a dead end with no room for growth. That is wrong.

This is literally a binary isn’t it? Either it has or hasn’t room for growth.

[Supersnow845]

This is literally a binary isn’t it? Either it has or hasn’t room for growth.

I said it was a dead end as in the rotation is locked down, it’s avenues of evolution are limited and most ideas presented are unlikely because they involve fundamental changes to the design of the rotation

Ren then took this as meaning that it physically cannot change at all, leading to the argument as to whether swapping Garuda out for shiva after phenoix with the same 3-4 casts of gemshine+a random astral flow does or doesn’t count as meaningful change

I say it doesn’t which is why I say SMN is at a dead end

[Sebazy]

Perhaps a fresh way to look at this is to look at what DNC got for EW.

In short, it lost 2 procs in it's burst (The PBAOE and Targeted procs getting merged into 1) window and gained 3 from memory? That and a cooldown reduction to 90 seconds on Shield Samba is it if I remember right (Not a DNC main!)

On a positive angle, it's fair to say that these changes added pressure to the 2 minute burst window with the sequence you do your burst also gaining some importance as well as a 'correct' burst granting you that extra ogcd.

On a negative angle, it's also fair to say that in reality, EW's DNC changes amounted to them shuffling your hotbars and potencies a little with a cooldown reduction on Samba being the 'cherry on top'.

Right now, even with the negative stance I don't think it's a significant problem to get an update like this just yet because the job was still new, fairly fresh and has generally garners positive opinions on itself. That will likely change for the worse if DNC continues to get minor nip and tuck tweaks for successive expansions though IMO.

Will SMN get afforded that same luxury? I'm not so sure, whilst it's still a 'fresh' job in terms of it's rework, it's vastly more polarising than DNC has ever been. If EW lands and it's updates amount to a few oGCDs shuffling around I doubt it's going to be pretty.

On a side note, this sort of thing is exactly why I keep repeating that SE *need* to expand their job design team yesterday.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ealer-designer.

[Aravell]

Perhaps a fresh way to look at this is to look at what DNC got for EW.

DNC is a good example of taking away something and replacing it with something else. But if we want an example of a job not evolving whatsoever, we have that too, I direct your attention to MCH. They got Chainsaw, that's it, that's all they got from 80 to 90, everything else is a minor potency increase. One can probably argue that MCH got Dismantle, but that's an old thing that was re-added and it doesn't even do anything to change how MCH plays, so I wouldn't count it.

Given that there does exist an example of the dev team doing a hard reset on a job and then not doing anything more in the following expansion, can any blame really be placed on people who aren't excited for SMN's prospective future?

[Supersnow845]

DNC is a good example of taking away something and replacing it with something else. But if we want an example of a job not evolving whatsoever, we have that too, I direct your attention to MCH. They got Chainsaw, that's it, that's all they got from 80 to 90, everything else is a minor potency increase. One can probably argue that MCH got Dismantle, but that's an old thing that was re-added and it doesn't even do anything to change how MCH plays, so I wouldn't count it.

Given that there does exist an example of the dev team doing a hard reset on a job and then not doing anything more in the following expansion, can any blame really be placed on people who aren't excited for SMN's prospective future?

MCH is also a good example of a job that like SMN has a very rigid rotation so you can’t really do anything with it that is all that meaningful

Your filler is your 1-2-3 with the occasional drill, your burst is basically just wildfire/dump your oGCD’s/summon your (not) DOT/hypercharge window

If they wanted to meaningfully change MCH they would either need to change the hypercharge window or change the 1-2-3 filler, because otherwise you are really just tinkering around the edges with an oGCD or two; this is exactly why I have zero faith in SMN doing anything special because that’s exactly what they did, added chainsaw which you just dump in the wildfire window

[ForsakenRoe]

Isn't there like, only one GCD free in the SMN rotation per minute right now? One single filler ruin3, everything else is fully occupied by the gem stuff and Baha/Phoenix phases. And a random Ruin 4 once a minute. So it looks to me like the only options they have is to MCH it: a bunch of potency upgrade traits/VFX changes that don't change the rotation (summoning the missing 3 primals after Phoenix, for example), and then one final GCD that fills that last Ruin 3 spot

The rework's only been out for one expansion and already they're painted into a corner on 'how much room is there to add new things'

[Mikey_R]

As a question to all, what would be an example of a good change made by an expansion to a job?

The rework's only been out for one expansion and already they're painted into a corner on 'how much room is there to add new things'

With different summons it means different mechanics in each one and whilst there is only 1 free GCD slot in the whole rotation, you can argue Enkindle does nothing in the gem summons, so there could be something there and Gemshine/Precious Brilliance does nothing in the Demi phase, so there is potential there as well. They could also draw from past Summoner in executing the Aetherflow attacks build a resource to do something else.

Whether this is the route they go or not is a different question entirely, but the potential for something else is still there.