G-give it Back T---T; !! (Scholar Edition)

[Renathras]

If you make Toxikon DPS neutral you need to give it a cooldown. Otherwise you'd have unlimited DPS neutral healing.

Nah, it'd be limited by MP. The shields cost quite a bit of MP. Besides which, if it was the Job's functional rotation, this wouldn't be a problem. Let's be real, we already have effectively unlimited DPS neutral healing via all the oGCDs we have in the game. Everyone who brags about how they cleared an entire dungeon or fight with just oGCD heals? They just expressed they had, for that encounter's healing requirement, "unlimited DPS neutral healing". So this is already a thing. We might as well enshrine it and make it more interesting.

Issue 1: It's overpowered AF

It really isn't. SGE is already over powered due to the oGCDs it already has. The healing costs MP, so it ultimately isn't free, and this would be more akin to SB SCH's Miasma 2 optimization. As for the optimized play argument - that sounds to me like an argument for reducing SGE's oGCD healing power (what it heals with now), not for limiting Toxicon.

Also keep in mind, for what it's worth, that you'll be reducing Kardia healing by using GCD heals still. While not huge, that is cutting the direct heal of Eu Prog/Diag by effectively 170 potency. And remember, unlike SCH, that's not pet potency.

Issue 2: It would reduce GCD healing choice (given increased enough healing requirements that GCD heals would be used) for self and cohealer.

Respectfully disagree. SGE already has very limited GCD healing options. Pneuma is once per 2 minutes, so the only other options it has are Cure 1, Adlo, Medica 1, and Succor. The only thing that would be reduced is that Cure 1 and Medica 1 would be less used in favor of Adlo and Succor...but this is ALREADY the way things are. How often are SGE's using Diagnosis right now? AT THE WORST, it simply enshrines what's already happening in the game right now. It doesn't make it any worse. Pneuma would still be worth using, and non-Eukrasia Diagnosis and Prognosis would still mostly be for niche emergency situations. So nothing changes. Note that the damage neutrality here would mean that Eukrasia Prognosis WOULD STILL BE USED for AOE situations, so no, it wouldn't force all AOE healing to the other healer in the party.

Right now, the situation is that SGE's try to avoid GCD healing ENTIRELY. How is "You'll be encouraged to only use 3 of your 5 GCD heals!" so much worse than "You're currently encouraged to use NONE of your GCD heals other than the 1 per 2 minute one"?

[ty_taurus]

Nah, it'd be limited by MP. The shields cost quite a bit of MP. Besides which, if it was the Job's functional rotation, this wouldn't be a problem. Let's be real, we already have effectively unlimited DPS neutral healing via all the oGCDs we have in the game. Everyone who brags about how they cleared an entire dungeon or fight with just oGCD heals? They just expressed they had, for that encounter's healing requirement, "unlimited DPS neutral healing". So this is already a thing. We might as well enshrine it and make it more interesting.

Both Eukrasian Diagnosis and Eukrasian Prognosis are 900 MP, but Toxikon costs no MP. Dosis > Dosis = 800 MP while Eukrasian D/P > Toxikon = 900 MP. The MP difference is very negligible when it's constantly providing you with a no DPS cost attack spell.

[Renathras]

Both Eukrasian Diagnosis and Eukrasian Prognosis are 900 MP, but Toxikon costs no MP. Dosis > Dosis = 800 MP while Eukrasian D/P > Toxikon = 900 MP. The MP difference is very negligible when it's constantly providing you with a no DPS cost attack spell.

Eh yeah, that's fair.

Doesn't change the other part of my argument, though, that this is no worse than the current situation where we have infinite DPS neutral free healing via oGCDs. So at worst, this is, again, no worse than what we have currently.

But this is another "forest for the trees" tangent situation/derail.

[ty_taurus]

I like the idea of strategic use of barrier direct heals, but if my ability to do that is limitless, I'm just going to be spamming barriers in savage fights, which is not the fantasy of Sage either.

I want the bulk of my healing to come from DPS attacks that generate healing, but attacks that I have to choose to use, not that automatically occur by me doing exactly what I'd be doing anyway.

[ForsakenRoe]

stupid rant that got very rambling, i'll just leave it in tags but it's not exactly coherent

But the issue is, all these 'small changes' that did not adversely affect the complexity of WHM like Overheal Weed, did actually affect it. Now, instead of a multi-hit raidwide like Styx, instead of requiring multiple GCD heal casts, can now be solved with just 'use the plant'. This removes the aspect, however small it previously was, of 'you might have MP issues later if you spam heals here'. I don't blame SE for making things damage neutral (and therefore positive in raidbuffs), because the playerbase of this game latches onto the stupidest things and parrots them as fact. Changing Misery from 900 to 1200 (instead of 1240) would have meant that using them willynilly and spending Misery without any thinking would be 40p loss, which is only a loss vs the Glares if A: you don't crit, B: you don't direct hit, C, there are zero raidbuffs up at the time, D: you don't gain a GCD by using a Lily heal while moving, E: you don't gain a GCD by using Misery for movement, F: you don't save a GCD of actually lossy healing (eg Medica2) by using a Lily in it's place. Lilies were not meant to be 'this is 100% damage neutral'. They were meant to be like Aetherflow. You took 1200 potential potency to prep and use the Misery, and got 900 back from it. Per Lily spent, that's 100p 'lost', the same as you 'lose' by using an Aetherflow heal instead of Energy Drain. It was even more lenient, because you could put this 'refund' into raidbuffs, to recoup even more damage, and potentially turn it into a DPS gain. But people didn't see that. Instead they saw nothing but damage loss, and rather than find a way to play around that loss, and find ways to minimize losses (as we do with SCH to get more EDs), they wanted the loss removed entirely. It's like when SCH had ED removed in 5.0, there was no worry about 'losing damage by Aetherflow healing', but the issue was, it felt like shit to have resources you didn't need, and had nothing to spend them on. To an extent, it's what I feel about Lilies now. There's nothing to spend the healing on, so it's just overheal. But I HAVE to spend them, to do the Misery-in-raidbuffs thing. It's counterintuitive

At the end of the day, I chalk it up to people thinking that 'X change would be better, turns out it's actually got its own problems'. If people had known back then, that 'WAR's gapcloser will be damage neutral, but now you only ever want to dump it's charges inside Trick and never any other time', they probably wouldn't have been so up for it. People wanted to be able to use the gapcloser to gapclose, and we can't really do that with the current form. And I see it as being the same with the Lilies. Healing with them is the 'nice side effect', the main reason to use them is to get Misery ready for raidbuffs, and I think that's backwards. I'd rather have them be slightly damage-lossy, so that 'when I use the Lily heals' is an actual choice, with consequences to my damage if I choose 'incorrectly' (even if that 'consequence' is a total of just 40p lost), because I cannot stand the idea of purposely wasting my resources to serve a purpose not related to those resources. I don't like throwing Druochole at myself for MP purposes on SGE either. In some regards, I'd even call it a 'failure of design' that the Lilies are now damage neutral. Because the 'refund' system they are designed to have, is no longer just a 'refund', but a 'you actually profited on this transaction' thanks to raidbuffs.

People are complaining about positionals and asking for them to be removed, I think 'don't remove them, just lower the bonus gained from them to 10p instead of 60p on some jobs', because without positionals, melee will feel dull as dishwater by comparison. But some people can't see that outcome until the change happens and it's too late, so they keep asking. Maybe the new job will have zero because of it, who knows

Toxikon being neutral would destroy the healing landscape. I don't think you know by how much, but let me try to explain. E.Diag/E.Prog would be damage neutral, you could recoup their damage via Toxikon, that's simple enough. But there's key differences between it, and Misery, that would be much much worse for the game:

• Toxikon requires only one GCD to set up for, in a high damage setting you could alternate Tox and shields. Misery takes 3 GCDs to set up
• Toxikon being damage neutral would cause more crit variance. Phlegma's already bad enough for it
• Toxikon can be banked up to 3 times. Misery can only have one charge banked. You'd want to go into every raidbuff window with 3 Toxikon's banked
• Misery's 'GCD builder', the Lilies, are once per 20s. Toxikon's is accessible at any time, without limit beyond it's MP cost.

You'd have SGEs able to use E.Diagnosis as, if they wanted, every second GCD. Between this, Kardia, and the tank's own kit, Pure healers would never need to do anything to keep the tanks alive. Why even use Aquaveil when the SGE can throw E.Diag on the tank without any thought? Also, that's not even considering that both E.Diag and Toxikon are instantcasts, meaning 100% mobility.

Put another way, if Lilies were not a thing, and you could just Solace/Rapture at will (spending Misery to recoup lost damage), how does that raise the skill ceiling? If ED didn't take away from your healing resources (instead being a 20s chargetime, 3 charges, action to dump in raidbuffs), how does that raise the skill ceiling?

Doesn't change the other part of my argument, though, that this is no worse than the current situation where we have infinite DPS neutral free healing via oGCDs. So at worst, this is, again, no worse than what we have currently.

As noted above, the OGCDs are free (ie don't lose damage), but not 'infinite'. They have gauge costs, CDs, limiters on how accessible they are and how often. If SGE loses only 50MP per GCD by alternating E.Diag and Toxikon (versus 2x Dosis), then that invalidates a hell of a lot more of the kit than what is currently invalidated by the OGCDs. ATM, we have to make use of Kerachole, Pankardia, Holos for mitigating raidwides while maximizing damage in Savage. With this, we can just put up E.Prog for free, we would not need to think about what order to use our OGCDs as we would not need to use them at all. We could ignore Haima, Taurochole, Ixochole, Dosis itself for the most part. Kardia's healing wouldn't even be a second thought, because A: the eHP of E.Diag is so much stronger and B: you'd still get the Kardia heal on the Toxikon cast. And that's saying nothing of how we'd be invalidating our cohealer and their kit. We're already overhealing on purpose with Lilies for the sake of Misery, with a change like this I'd expect it to be even more prevalent. Only way you'd catch me being okay with ideas like this is if 8mans were redesigned to only require one healer, with the healing required being the same as now. Because this would enable it to occur with alarming frequency

I like the idea of strategic use of barrier direct heals, but if my ability to do that is limitless, I'm just going to be spamming barriers in savage fights, which is not the fantasy of Sage either.

Pretty much how I feel about it. Having things be a 'tiny damage loss' means that using them willy-nilly is not encouraged by the game, but still well within range for raidbuffs to cover the 'loss', and even exceed it and make it a gain. I'm okay with 'using this resource cleverly causes it to be a gain thanks to raidbuffs', I'm just not so okay with 'it is literally impossible to choose wrong with this system', as Lilies now are. The only way to 'lose damage' now, compared to just using Glares, is to overcap, or to use a Lily at the end of a fight and not fire the Misery in time before the fight ends

[Nizzi]

hoonestly, no. way to many buttons just to aoe damage people when you have fester and painflair. i dont miss these skills, i wont miss these skills. scholar is a decent dps even now. has lots of paths to go down for its dps that even sage doesnt have. so, no thanks. it should stay in 5.0

Why do people just make up complete lies about Scholar? Do the people that do this have collective memory issues or something? Scholar has never been able to use Fester or Painflare. Who cares if you don't miss those skills in the OP, you don't even know what skills Scholar has now! It's the one singular job in the game that has one (1) singular AoE ability for DPS, which is Art of War, not Fester or Painflare. Jobs should be designed for the people that main them, not around job tourists who maybe play them once in a blue moon in their roulettes.

[ForsakenRoe]

Why do people just make up complete lies about Scholar? Do the people that do this have collective memory issues or something? Scholar has never been able to use Fester or Painflare. Who cares if you don't miss those skills in the OP, you don't even know what skills Scholar has now! It's the one singular job in the game that has one (1) singular AoE ability for DPS, which is Art of War, not Fester or Painflare. Jobs should be designed for the people that main them, not around job tourists who maybe play them once in a blue moon in their roulettes.

He equipped a book and didn't bother to see which of the two book-jobs said book was for, perhaps. But agreed, SE seems to design around 'draw people who don't main, to try the thing', and this comes at the cost of the people who do main it. And it hasn't caused any noticeable improvement in % of playerbase sticking with the role, so it's been quite a failed experiment

[Shurrikhan]

Nah, it'd be limited by MP. The shields cost quite a bit of MP.

EuDiag>Toxi costs only 50 MP/GCD over Dosis. If you spammed it as often as possible short of overcapping Addersting, it'd cost only 1200 more MP per minute than using no healing spells at all.

Respectfully disagree. SGE already has very limited GCD healing options.

Something already being limited is not an excuse to limit it further, nor a mitigating factor to those further limitations' relative costs on gameplay. It's usually the opposite.

The only thing that would be reduced is that Cure 1 and Medica 1 would be less used in favor of Adlo and Succor...but this is ALREADY the way things are.

You know full well that's not the case in any serious content. The effect isn't just that you use the blatantly superior options that exist now, but you'd use almost only ever the blatantly better-still option that you'd have just recreated, because healers operate as a pair.

If one healer can freely spam ST healing but not AoE healing and the other has can freely spam neither, then the one with the relative advantage in ST will take up that much more ST duty and pass along that much more AoE healing to be done to the other. The only exception to this is where both healers somehow need to AoE GCD heal within the very same single GCD of time after impact for the raid to survive (i.e., basically never, even with increased healing requirements), instead of being capable of the more efficient combined action wherein the healer less penalized, relatively speaking, for AoE GCD healing does all the necessary AoE GCD healing.

If you make Eukrasian Diagnosis free and nothing else, you'll see more use of EuDiag and less (if any) of anything else.

Inb4 "But you defended people using GCDs when necessary even when it's a loss, so why wouldn't people still use the other GCD options!" Why? Because the others wouldn't be necessary outside of the aforementioned incredibly rare situations. You will thereby have reduced the number of competitive choices by overpowering the single choice among many.

Eukrasian Prognosis can also generate Addersting when its barrier on you breaks, so SGE would also have unlimited DPS neutral AoE healing.

It'd be bottlenecked by incoming AoEs, whereas EuDiag can far more reliably get you to 3 of the 4 suggested maximum Addersting stacks, but yes, my saying that Ren's suggestion would only give SGE more than double its free ST healing and some double WHM's total free healing in practice was technically lowballing its overall power increase.

[OgruMogru]

to sch is to suffer eternal

[Aravell]

...and if you don't want snide jabs at your character, maybe you shouldn't make snide jabs at mine FIRST?

If you seriously think this was a jab at you, you actually didn't read any of the posts that came before. You said I never pitched the SGE idea, I gave you evidence that I mentioned the same thing, then you try and hit me with the technicality of "tHaT wAsN't A qUeStIoN".

You know what? I'm done. You've been nothing but petty and dismissive to me after some perceived slight when I've been nothing but measured and reasonable with you. You're so tiring to converse with, you just attack me for no reason and you view things that aren't even an attack on you as an attack. Have it your way, I'm not returning to this conversation.