[MONK] My issues with the MONK, especially compared to other jobs.

[Shurrikhan]

And yes, every ability in its natural rotation is used on cooldown. Even abilities with charges, as PB's charge is less a "This is for double bursting," and more a "This is to prevent drift." That's part of why it's called a 'natural' rotation and not an optimized one.

No, this is precisely wrong. Multi-charge skills are there for double-bursting. That is their intent. And if you used them as intended you'd find that PB flows just fine even at low SkS. At higher speed, you can exploit them even further but have to alternate Lunar-Solar-Phantom with Solar-Lunar-Phantom, but that's it; you do not drop DF when using Perfect Balance.

[VentVanitas]

So you're telling me that a new player, ignorant of the concept of BIS, is going to know this? The fact I, a non-monk main, have regularly noticed it with random gear is more than enough proof that it's enough of a problem to need addressing.

I don't think a new player is going to care, actually, considering that this is the first time I've ever seen someone complaining about something as insignificant as briefly dropping Twin Snakes.

And yes, every ability in its natural rotation is used on cooldown. Even abilities with charges, as PB's charge is less a "This is for double bursting," and more a "This is to prevent drift." That's part of why it's called a 'natural' rotation and not an optimized one.

it... quite literally is for double bursting. they didn't just make it 40s cooldown with 2 charges for shits and giggles, its following the same design as every other job in this game.

[Zairava]

So you're telling me that a new player, ignorant of the concept of BIS, is going to know this? The fact I, a non-monk main, have regularly noticed it with random gear is more than enough proof that it's enough of a problem to need addressing.

I'm not going to get into nitty gritty details on Monk here, but I'm going to comment on this specifically.

Why would, and should new players care? Not everything needs to be simplified down so far that optimizations get neutralized because someone who has hundreds of hours to even get to the endgame can not worry about it, they aren't even thinking about it. Old content is so inherently easy these days despite being harder comparatively to newer content it's not even remotely worth ruining the enjoyment out of players dedicated to the job at the endgame.

[Llynethil]

I'm never sure what you guys mean by clunky in this forum, everyone says everything is clunky in some way on these forums.[/SIZE]

Play sam, which is very similar in resource generation but 100x better designed and streamlined to get the combo's done and the resources generated, then play mnk again, it's super clunky design wise when compared to sam and is by far the job in most need of remake, not drg like they plan.

[Zairava]

Play sam, which is very similar in resource generation but 100x better designed and streamlined to get the combo's done and the resources generated, then play mnk again, it's super clunky design wise when compared to sam and is by far the job in most need of remake, not drg like they plan.

subjectivity and all that, but...

even as someone who doesn't play monk that much outside of leveling it, it is by far their best rework given their track record, and I'd really rather they worked on and refined the current one rather than try to do it again.. If anything Chakra needs work because of how quickly it generates later on.

I do agree on Dragoon not really "needing" a rework though...I know they said that it's supposed to be more of a nin-style 5.1 mini-rework, but this is the same people that removed Kaiten and butchered DRK so...I'm far more concerned rather than excited here.

[Shurrikhan]

Play sam, which is very similar in resource generation but 100x better designed and streamlined to get the combo's done and the resources generated, then play mnk again, it's super clunky design wise when compared to sam and is by far the job in most need of remake, not drg like they plan.

???

Monk is at least as smoothly designed as SAM.

And neither MNK nor DRG needs a full rework. At most, DRG could afford to spend a separate button on entering Life of the Dragon or find a way not to force drift at ping onto Geirskogul from each LotD cycle. It's otherwise fine.

MNK, meanwhile, was the rare miracle of a job making through a rework net-unscathed. I do not want to play Russian Roulette with the job yet again. It has a tiny bit of unnecessary bloat and should move the post-PB formless to PB itself instead of Blitz. But that's it. It's much too good to throw into the thresher again and hope for the ~25% chance that it isn't made worse.


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Daily Cap Edit:

Monk rotation isn't anywhere close to being as smooth as sam's.

Okay, to be fair, by "smooth" I mean "fluid/flowing" and "absent of awkward encumbrances so long as one makes use of what optimizations are pretty immediately intuitive"... rather the likes of "smooth-brain".

MNK is already plenty "smooth" (fluid, intuitive). It does not need to become gutless, unchecked, shallowed out, etc.
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You just said it, chakra has rng attached to it, that makes it clunkier than kenki.

That's not clunky. Every Chakra increase outside of Brotherhood comes from a weaponskill crit, meaning each increase is also indicated right from your floating combat text and is entirely predictable in its timing. It even has a sound effect telling you when it's readied.

You don't need forms for samurai, that makes sam smoother and less clunky.

Combos are no "smoother" than Forms. It's just 1/2-3/4-5/6 vs. 1-2-3/1-2-4/1-5. Forms just have fewer outright dead/trap keys in any average given GCD.

Compare all of those to what buttons mnk has to go through for their st or aoe rotations to set crap up

MNK ST: Takes 1-3 GCDs to get "set up", depending on how you define "set up": Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, and Demolish.
SAM ST: Takes 2-3 GCDs to get "set up" if using Meikyo, 6 GCDs if not -- Fugetsu, Fuka, and Higanbana.

MNK AoE: 1 GCD. Four Point Fury. Done.
SAM AoE: 2 GCDs with Meikyo, 4 GCDs otherwise.

also sam gets dmg and speed from its combos, no extra buttons needed unlike mnk which again is less clunky.

How is literally starting at max speed somehow more "clunky" than needing a buff just to reach the second lowest speed tier (MNK, NIN, and even Paeon-4 Bard outpace it)? Monk doesn't use additional / non-rotational buttons to get its buffs, and is even free to open with that buff without consuming CDs.

SAM needs to put up 2 buffs before reaching its normal state (damage and haste). MNK needs only the one (damage).

None of your warrants here seem to be making any sense.

[Llynethil]

???

Monk is at least as smoothly designed as SAM.

And neither MNK nor DRG needs a full rework. At most, DRG could afford to spend a separate button on entering Life of the Dragon or find a way not to force drift at ping onto Geirskogul from each LotD cycle. It's otherwise fine.

MNK, meanwhile, was the rare miracle of a job making through a rework net-unscathed. I do not want to play Russian Roulette with the job yet again. It has a tiny bit of unnecessary bloat and should move the post-PB formless to PB itself instead of Blitz. But that's it. It's much too good to throw into the thresher again and hope for the ~25% chance that it isn't made worse.

Not at all.

Sam just goes 123 14 156 to get stickers, each sticker is easy to get and easy to apply, kenki moves are just auto generated alongside it and you use them when available/applicable.

Monk rotation isn't anywhere close to being as smooth as sam's, hell they even removed kaiten (rip) to make it smoother, but more boring.

[Mikey_R]

Not at all.

Sam just goes 123 14 156 to get stickers, each sticker is easy to get and easy to apply, kenki moves are just auto generated alongside it and you use them when available/applicable.

Monk rotation isn't anywhere close to being as smooth as sam's, hell they even removed kaiten (rip) to make it smoother, but more boring.

What is difficult/not smooth about monks GCD rotation? You also mentioned clunky, what about it is clunky?

Chakra is also generated via your GCDs, with a bit of RNG on top, so I don't know what you are on about (unless it is the Brotherhood window, but Monk has so few oGCDs, it doesn't get in the way).

What is it about Monk's rotation specifically that you do not like? Don't just say, look, Samurai does this therefore Monk is bad, that says nothing. Talk about Monk specifically and reference other jobs to make your point.

[Llynethil]

You just said it, chakra has rng attached to it, that makes it clunkier than kenki.

You don't need forms for samurai, that makes sam smoother and less clunky.

Your stickercombos all start from the same ability, that makes it smoother and less clunky.

Stickers are easier at a glance to see how many you have and what your stickermove is gonna do making it smoother.

Aoe is literally 1-2 1-3 sticker, use kenki moves when possible, again a smoother rotation.

Compare all of those to what buttons mnk has to go through for their st or aoe rotations to set crap up, also sam gets dmg and speed from its combos, no extra buttons needed unlike mnk which again is less clunky.

Aside the weeb point, there's a reason sam is played waayyyyy more than mnk, and that's its design.

Yea there are always personal preferences, but a better designed class will always be picked up by a lot more people.

[Mikey_R]

You just said it, chakra has rng attached to it, that makes it clunkier than kenki.

Why is it RNG makes it clunky?

You don't need forms for samurai, that makes sam smoother and less clunky.

Why does the addition of forms to dictate your combos make Monk clunky/less smooth?

Your stickercombos all start from the same ability, that makes it smoother and less clunky.

Monk doesn't have sticker combos, so no idea what you are trying to say here. Unless you mean the PB window, which again works differently, so, what is it about it you do not like?

Stickers are easier at a glance to see how many you have and what your stickermove is gonna do making it smoother.

Monk doesn't have stickers, unless you are on about the beast chakra, which is dictated by the next 3 weapon skills, which you should already know which one you are after before you get to it, so you don't even need to pay attention to them anyway.

Aoe is literally 1-2 1-3 sticker, use kenki moves when possible, again a smoother rotation.

Monk is literaly 1-2-3, with it changing slightly for PB and even then, only for Elixir Field/Phantom rush.

Compare all of those to what buttons mnk has to go through for their st or aoe rotations to set crap up, also sam gets dmg and speed from its combos, no extra buttons needed unlike mnk which again is less clunky.

Which is all setup automatically by doing the rotation.

However, you done the same thing in this post I told you not to do. I asked WHY you felt Monk was clunky and to use and to reference other jobs. All you have done, again, is say, Sam does this therefore Monk is clunky. That doesn't help anyone at all.