Zepla: Endwalker is the Worst FFXIV Expansion I have played

[Shurrikhan]

One thing you didn't mention that I think has had a big effect is the 2 minute meta. Beyond the general issue of job design (also a problem), the 2 minute meta has effectively removed some player agency and that makes things less satisfying even if that agency is sometimes more illusion than real.

If the 2 minute meta is back for Dawntrail, then we'll truly know the developers don't pay attention to player feedback.

I feel like this one gets all too often blown out of proportion, especially where it frames the problem as one of matching raid-buffs (rather than the portion of jobs' potency-per-minute that can now fall within 15-20 seconds per those 2 minutes).

Consider:

• What optimizations processes did you follow before? What optimization processes do you follow now? What, if anything, changed?
  
  
• What are differences, not just broadly between how people play(ed) then and now (since player communities do learn how to get better at the game, such that even a new Savage player today may inadvertently come across far more now than they would have when T6S came out), but between the gameplay implications of those kits then and now as they'd play out in today's player contexts?

We've lost a bit of pre-combat optimization in/per set comps (though, admittedly, that's a community issue more than a systems/design issue, as the differences between as optimal a comp as possible and a random comp were smaller than that of a single DPS underperforming). I'm not sure, though, that's even a bad thing, in itself.

If/when there's no AST, or you wouldn't be the preferred AST target, we've lost some things for which to hold bankables that can't be saved all the way for the next major raidbuff cycle as formerly granted by 60|90s CDs. That's a loss, and I therefore preferred that aspect of what we had before, but that loss is quite small.

If we say that our performance now depends more on syncing up to raid buffs, we're essentially saying that there is now a larger difference between what DPS one can produce individually and what Party DPS they can produce contextually. The latter comes from finding the greatest product possible from (A) potency density and (B) damage-amp density. But of those, despite raid buffs becoming increasingly stackable, the larger change is simply in our controllable potency density.


Now perhaps we're using this term "2-minute meta" super broadly, to the point that we really also mean an "exploitability" or "bankability" meta, rather than merely that timers have become standardized. In that case, we'd also be referring to how the preference for jobs with higher margins of what damage they produce in an 8-man context over what they produce alone ((aDPS-nDPS)+(rDPS-nDPS)) sparked an arms race of potency controllability/bankability.

Though, unless we're referring to raw potencies themselves, as in Paladin's Req combo doing so much more damage than its average potency-per-GCD (such that smaller optimizations become increasingly outweighed by Crit/DHit luck on those nukes), we'd still have to then ask: Do we specifically dislike having more control over the timing of our damage? Is it more than we didn't go far enough, since 1 charge offers no damage control, but a total (all charges) recharge time that matches our CD- or raid-buff intervals still means "effectively" no damage control (pacing is obligatory)?

Those are the actual gameplay-impacting design decisions, and simply yelling "Revert!" or "Down with the 2-minute meta!" has a damn high chance at a Monkey's Paw outcome if we aren't specific. (Hell, look how often even incredibly precise feedback gets misconstrued.)

[Thurmnmurmn]

I'm gonna keep being a broken record because the irony is kinda funny.
Complaining about the thread is continuing the thread.

[LittleImp]

I want to see this thread hit 200 pages.

Endwalker from the start hasn't been a good expac imo. Numbers can say all they want but,

The great thing is, there essentially are no actual numbers.

White knights tend to rally behind Lucky Bancho, which counts alts as multiple people and is compounded cumulatively over multi-month windows.

Antis rally behind Steamcharts, which are a hard datapoint but fundamentally incomplete due to their scope.

All we really have are our anecdotes and personal experience. The closest we can come to hard numbers is maybe to evaluate iterations of individual systems by looking at achievement ownership.

A good example would be that the achievements tied to Mount Rokkon have roughly 50% less ownership than those tied to Sildihn Subterrane, and in the case of the Criterion difficulty 66% less. Many players just outright didn't bother with the second iteration of V/C, which indicates it's probably not a very successful system.

[Thurmnmurmn]

The main complaint I have about the 2 min meta is the fact it makes all jobs feel ever more the same. Doesn't matter what job you play, pop buffs at the same time.

[R041]

What are you trying to accomplish exactly? What are your goals here? It's like jumping into a pool and trying to push the water away. You think you'd actually learn after 8 years.

I'd probably need blood pressure meds if I actually cared about how people argue on the internet. So good luck I guess.

If you wanna have an argument about how people have arguments, go ahead and make a new argument thread and see who joins you to argue about arguing.
It mostly seems like you just want to derail this thread to get it locked.

[Shurrikhan]

The main complaint I have about the 2 min meta is the fact it makes all jobs feel ever more the same. Doesn't matter what job you play, pop buffs at the same time.

If I may ask, how different did SAM's 40s and 60s (Hagakure + Higanbana), NIN's 60s (TA), MNK's 60s and 90s (PB and RoF), and DRG's 80s (BFB) and 120s (DS), etc., personal cycles feel to you compared to their current manner of play? How different did they feel from one another, then and now?

[Jojoya]

I feel like this one gets all too often blown out of proportion, especially where it frames the problem as one of matching raid-buffs (rather than the portion of jobs' potency-per-minute that can now fall within 15-20 seconds per those 2 minutes).

Consider:

• What optimizations processes did you follow before? What optimization processes do you follow now? What, if anything, changed?
  
  
• What are differences, not just broadly between how people play(ed) then and now (since player communities do learn how to get better at the game, such that even a new Savage player today may inadvertently come across far more now than they would have when T6S came out), but between the gameplay implications of those kits then and now as they'd play out in today's player contexts?

That's why I bring it up as an issue of player agency. Feeling like you have control over when you choose to blow your cooldowns is fun and very satisfying for many even if the reality is they would probably use them at specific times regardless. Now they feel like that choice has been taken away from them.

Games need to feel fun. There's a lot more fun when you're deciding what to do than when someone else has made the choice for you.

I want to see this thread hit 200 pages.

That's why posters are asked to keep comments on the same subject in a single thread. The more pages a topic hits, the more likely it is to genuinely concerns players.

More pages here says that the things Zepla brought up are on player minds.

All we really have are our anecdotes and personal experience. The closest we can come to hard numbers is maybe to evaluate iterations of individual systems by looking at achievement ownership.

Why a legitmate state of the game survey is needed in addition to the casual PR survey they released today.

[Renathras]

The irony is palpable.

How the turns have tabled..

Hm?

I never try to silence people I'm opposed to, and I even oppose dogpiles against people I dislike or disagree with. I encourage discussion. I confront negativity, I don't say it has no basis or that it isn't allowed to be spoken while taking part in dogpiles trying to smother any negative posters or comments. I prefer engaging with people and oppose bullying them into silence.

And you can start over in that new thread. A fresh start where you can try to do better. If you can't do better then you close that thread too. You keep trying until people start to converse like the grown adults that we all know are behind those screens.

Besides, once again I want to point out that it's not silencing. Silencing would be wiping your posts out, banning users, and otherwise preventing discussion completely.

An interesting idea, but I doubt it would work. I prefer people being allowed to speak, though it WOULD be nice if all the people SAYING they want discussion weren't lying and actually were engaging in good faith, not looking for reasons to dogpile on people they disagree with and upvote each other's snark posts that bring literally nothing to the conversation other than animosity.

I want to see this thread hit 200 pages.

At this point, why not? We're over 5/8ths of the way there.

What are you trying to accomplish exactly? What are your goals here?

I'd have to see what you're referring to. You "quoted" and inserted a picture, not one of my comments, so I don't know what you're referring to. Perhaps next time, instead of a snarky thing like that, provide the exact quote you're talking about and I can offer more insight.

As for the bold:

I'm literally the only one in this thread that has tried (repeatedly, I'll add) to NOT derail it and talk about the topic. Indeed, every time I do, OTHER PEOPLE spend the next 5 pages bashing me for "writing a novel". Perhaps you should ask them why it seems like they just want to derail this thread to get it locked, as I'm the only one that absolutely hasn't behaved in that way.

Indeed, your post seems to be an attempt to mock me (mocking other users can get threads locked) and derail the thread. So I guess I should ask you why you seem to want to derail the thread and get it locked?

EDIT:

The main complaint I have about the 2 min meta is the fact it makes all jobs feel ever more the same. Doesn't matter what job you play, pop buffs at the same time.

I agree with this.

It seems to severely limit design space, rotations, even encounter designs. It's a massive hamstring on the game's design.

[Thurmnmurmn]

If I may ask, how different did SAM's 40s and 60s (Hagakure + Higanbana), NIN's 60s (TA), MNK's 60s and 90s (PB and RoF), and DRG's 80s (BFB) and 120s (DS), etc., personal cycles feel to you compared to their current manner of play? How different did they feel from one another, then and now?

Jojoya's answer hit the nail on the head. Having the freedom to choose.

[CNitsah]

The point being made is really that SE does make a lot of content, it is just designed in a way that you are done with it a lot quicker than many players would like.

And more than anything else, " a lot quicker that it used to in older expansions". It's mainly that part back we complain about.