If you had a magic wand and could add three things, what would it be?

[Shurrikhan]

Not to detail the thread, but you're incorrect.

Indeed, didn't we HAVE a discussion where you were the one arguing that RDM was being benched in hardcore content (thus by hardcore players) because it wasn't doing more damage and those players were swapping to either BLM (if they wanted more damage) or SMN (if they wanted less effort)? There are hardcores ALL THE TIME asking for RDM and SMN to not get raise taxes anymore.

Those aren't casual players.

Okay, you've again got some weird definition going on. Not everyone who steps into Savage is thereby a "hardcore" player, or there would be zero purpose for the term. Grey parse or orange, floor-mop or carry, there just for the chuckles or sweating, they'd all equally be "hardcore". We already have a term for all those who do Savage raids. It's "Savage raiders". Or "people who play Savage".

By any use of the term not purposely meant to be circuitous and redundant, "hardcore" generally refers to people who engage with the gameplay systems deliberately, and usually tend to enjoy the game-within-the-game of learning those system well. No one actually optimizing the hell out of their job is going to bottlenecked by the 50-150 party dps difference between SMN and RDM. That's less than a fifth of a percent of the party's DPS.

So no, not the "hardcore" players who are most likely to block a fellow hardcore player from coming on an RDM. It's utterly irrelevant to them in terms of clear potential, and simply shows up as obvious imbalance --that the easier, more risk-free, and therefore more reliable job not only gets more output for the same amount of effort, but even typically has a higher ceiling-- that may or may not be nonetheless worth commenting on.

There were hardcore players asking why WAR had a different shape AOE than the other Tanks

Okay, so by your definition, for that to be a "hardcore player" complaint, it must come from "hardcore" content. So... where's the WAR complaining about their AoE shape as it regards Savage? If the complaint comes from dungeons, after all, by your definition, it has to be a "casual" complaint, since it comes from "casual" content, never mind how the player actually is/enjoys engaging with that content, whether they like complexity in the combat itself, etc.

[Renathras]

By any use of the term not purposely meant to be circuitous and redundant, "hardcore" generally refers to people who engage with the gameplay systems deliberately, and usually tend to enjoy the game-within-the-game of learning those system well. No one actually optimizing the hell out of their job is going to bottlenecked by the 50-150 party dps difference between SMN and RDM. That's less than a fifth of a percent of the party's DPS.

Then there's no reason for you to argue that SMN needs to be more complicated and is making RDM get sidelined by hardcore players, since that isn't happening.

Good talk.

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[EDIT: Also, so we're entirely clear:

As always, you say I'm saying things I'm not saying. No where did I say "doing Savages makes one hardcore" nor the converse "everyone doing 4 mans is casual".

Read what I said not the strawman you want me to have said since it makes your arguments easier:

It was not Casual players asking for these changes. The changes that have been asked for and the discussions about similar topics are led by the hardcore elements of the community. Those heavily engaged with theorycrafting, mathing optimal rotations and solutions to game systems, and complaining about inefficiencies or various breaks from what they consider more ideal.

Casual players don't do any of that, and aren't even engaging with these topics most of the time. Thus the changes cannot have been made based on Casual feedback, since Casuals don't give that kind of feedback in the first place.

At best, you could argue the complaints are made by midcore players trying to break into being hardcore players, but that ignores that many in these types of discussions ARE hardcore players, not midcore and not casual. Hardcore players DO complain about these types of things, and do so all the time. I'm not sure why you want to blame "the dirty casuals" for everything when they're the most happy-go-lucky types who don't complain about game systems in the first place, other than to deflect blame from the people you hold on a pedestal being the ones actually doing this.]

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EDIT2:

Nice strawman. I've never said...

Uh-huh.

Sure, whatever.

Doesn't change the fact casuals aren't asking for these things, these changes are not made due to casual requests, and they aren't made for casuals. You can hate on casuals all you want, but as it turns out, they AREN'T responsible for all the ills in the game. I'm edit appending this to my prior post since I'm genuinely not interested in you derailing another thread nor me contributing to/helping you derail it. Keep believing the fantasy, I guess. o7