[6.0 - 6.4 Spoilers] An interesting video detailing Venat's polarizing reception

[Lyth]

There's nothing new to be discussed about Venat right now. There may be more information that comes out with the Rising, or with the upcoming 6.5 patch series, but for now I think we're largely rehashing debates that were held in here back in December 2021. It doesn't really matter what medium you choose to retread those ideas in, be it audio, video, manga, or the more traditional text format.

I think if your end goal is simply to share your personal experiences of the story and leave it at that, you are unlikely to find any resistance. You'll more likely find that people just nod and move on. If you do want actually to start up a 'discussion' around it, however, it does help to be able to read the room. The momentum just may not be there. Sometimes people aren't interested, and if they've made up their minds, you're unlikely to change them. Engineering a puppet show in here for the purposes of 'educating' the lore forums isn't going to be any more effective. In response, everyone usually picks up a sudden interest in the neighboring Qiqirn spelunking thread, in the hopes that the point gets across. We've all seen this side story, and its principle actor, many times before.

I've never had the impression that the story was designed with 'Hydaelyn vs. Zodiark factions' in mind. If you've spent the better part of six years continuously locked in tin-foil hat arguments on the internet about whether the Garleans and Ascians were secretly right all along, then perhaps it might seem that way, but that's unlikely to be representative of the average player experience. Many of us aren't going to have those old aching war wounds and grudges, and you really can't take that baggage into every conversation going forward. When you polarize yourself in this way, it does help to come back to the source text and reflect on what you were really reacting to. The impression I had personally, from Emet's final speech before he dissolved into bubbles, was that they had all collectively come to an understanding of sorts in the end.

The number of figurines, songs, and Codex entries a character has nothing to do with favoritism. This isn't job balance. If the writers wanted to create a story about good vs. evil, it would be relatively simple to do so. Earlier expansions were drawn along those lines, and writers do have the power to make a character unilaterally good or evil if they so choose. They can deny you the opportunity to even formulate an argument, depending on how the story develops. No, this is very much a story of a fractured family reconciling its differences and finally coming together. You don't win or lose with family.

Perhaps those hard drawn lines from Heavensward or Stormblood are the reason why they've chosen a completely fresh story angle for the next segment, free from player preconceptions. I'm sure that we'll all find ways to polarize ourselves, nevertheless.

[RaenMan]

Longtime lurker here, avoided posting on this forum for so long because of how.....hostile it can be. But I feel like finally posting now. I am familiar with a lot of what's gone on here for the past couple years, just stayed out of it till now. But yeah let's just say I'm intimately familiar this subject, as I've not only witnessed arguments here, but have engaged in arguments about this on other platforms like reddit and 4chan.

snip

That's not the problem. The problem is you guys are not here for discussion. You are here to repeat ad infinitum about how much you hate a specific character, and are completely unwilling to even humor that other points of view. You come in, assert your viewpoints on the story as absolute fact, and when someone disagrees with you, you become extremely aggressive, throw insults at them, insinuate that they are "genocide apologists" because they don't agree with you that Venat is literally Hitler (you guys have also accused Ishikawa of genocide apologism). You guys have begun to go even further as seen with your creepy obsession with certain individuals here where you have been stalking them within their own personal discords and trying to track them down on other websites for some form of "gotcha" against them, you're gotcha's are just them saying the same things they say here, and your justification for this behavior is because they have been supposedly "disingenuous" over their takes on the story. Yes I read THAT post (and others like it in the past here, which were similarly deleted and those guys rightfully banned). It could be summed up as "Lyth is being dishonest when she criticizes fictional characters that I like, so I decided to stalk her across the internet, leak her private discord messages, and I am somehow the good guy in this situation. This somehow makes Lyth look bad instead of just making me look like I am unhinged")

Like seriously, I remember him editing her post to something along the lines of "Wierd, deranged propaganda against a fictional race". Like what? Yeah it's a fictional race, that's why you should not be ACTUALLY mad about this. They're not real. They are not actual people. The Ancients do not exist.

And even if someone here is, in fact, being disingenuous when it comes to their story takes? Who cares? People are naturally biased and that bias will affect their opinions. As long as they are not attacking actual real people than this isn't a problem, but that's what you and yours do all the time. Somebody having a different (however biased) opinion than you over fiction is not justification to attack or harass them, let alone stalk them across the internet and try to dox them. You only serve to damage your own side in doing so and make them look better.

You guys say you want to come here to discuss but you are hostile to any contrary opinions and refuse to even consider you may be wrong. And yes, people are rightfully tired of this topic, because not only do the only people who want this topic to keep going (for 2 years now) extremely aggressive, rude and just want to assert their opinions as fact and refuse to humor any different POVs, but you are, at this point, just repeating yourselves ad nauseam.

Every "conversation" you guys start over this subject is just:

"Venat Bad"

"I agree"

Repeat for 2 years straight (technically 1.5 years), combine that with being hostile to anyone with differing opinions and you should understand why people here are just fed up with it. There are a million things to talk about in this story, a million things to criticize (especially with Endwalker, I am someone with serious problems of this expansion but not because of Venat), but it's as if you guys ONLY care about this one specific area, as if you think the entire story revolves around a dead faction that arent even the main characters, that you can't even play as. If you just want an echochamber about how much you dislike how this area of the story was handled, I'd say leave and create your own discord server but you've already done this. You are right, the lore forum is for discussion. You are not interested in discussion, so why are you here?

If you want to discuss the lore, then actually be willing to take other people's interpretations of it seriously and with respect. If you don't, then leave. Or continue to harass and try to dox people until you're banned, like several of your friends already have been, I've observed. You really do just bring this on yourselves and I don't understand what compels you after all this time.




ONE FINAL EDIT, regarding the video itself moreso (I wanted to post again but I've somehow reached by posting limit after 1 post?):

I see the video supporters here dismissing anyone here citing ingame sources by claiming that the video "disproves it" and that, even if you have direct ingame evidence proving you right, that it doesn't matter because this movie-length video you made "disproves it", according to you. A movie-length video nobody will even timestamp with a direct point where it "debunks" the aforementioned ingame sources.

Yeah that's.......not how this works, sorry. None of the people disagreeing with you guys needed to make a 2 hour long video essay to prove their point. They simply make a post here citing ingame sources and that's enough. If you are unable to do this, you aren't worth listening to. Nobody is obligated to watch a movie length video (one laden with clear bias at that) to be "corrected" on their own argument which they have backed up with ingame sources. If your video truly contains citations directly from ingame, or from the writers' mouths, or from any other official source, then you should have zero problem citing it here, in a forum post, like everyone on the other side is able to do with no issue. The fact that not only do you guys refuse to do this, but will not even put a direct timestamp of where exactly your video "disproves" the counterarguments (which are backed up via ingame sources), then your argument is not worth taking seriously.

Or is this your guys' new tactic: Make an absurdly long video that nobody save for people who already agree with the subject matter will watch, and then whenever somebody tries to argue against your viewpoints on Venat, you claim "AKCTUALLY this video longer than your average movie DEBUNKS u sir" and demand that they either watch it in full, or they can't argue against you about Venat ever. If that's your goal, well yeah sorry, but no. That's not how this works.

Either directly bring up ingame sources and share them here, like the people on the other side have done (who did so WITHOUT having to make a 2 hour video), or your argument isn't worth listening to. As it stands now, the people you are arguing with have managed to directly cite ingame sources in short and concise forum posts. Meanwhile, you have so far merely claimed that their INGAME SOURCES are somehow wrong and that your video (that 21 pages in you refuse to even give a direct timestamp to the part that supposedly debunks them) disproves them......because you said so and that's it.

And finally, I have to question your guys' motives here. I was reading through the comments on the video and saw the channel owner arguing with somebody over the video. The other persons were making pretty reasonable points, and what was the channel owner's only response to their arguments? They bragged that their continued comments were pushing the video in the algorithm and essentially told them to keep seething (they were calmly disagreeing, not even being rude). Combine that with certain other, similar comments in this thread by you guys, and the fact that you seem desperate on getting people here to click on your video (rather than cite ingame sources directly as you've been repeatedly asked or even make a direct timestamp for whatever you claim disproves them), it genuinely appears that you guys really are here to bait for attention, not because you have an actual, genuine point to make.

[Theodric]

Everyone's free to come to their own conclusions, of course, though for those willing to maintain an open mind I encourage them to get in touch with me in-game sometime. We can exchange Discord details - on throwaway accounts, if such is preferred - and then the evidence can be sent there.

[Fenral]

it genuinely appears that you guys really are here to bait for attention, not because you have an actual, genuine point to make.

Dingdingdingdingding, we have a winner!

Sometimes people get really attached to bad takes, and it takes a bit but they can be talked down and find common ground. (Once upon a time, that was me, too.) Assuming good faith can be rewarding.

That said, I've given second-, third-, and fifth-chances, but after a point, when the same people keep repeating the same tired tactic of pulling a "gotcha" on counterarguments in a way that entirely undermines their own points, you kind of lose faith that there's even an actual person to be reached with discussion. Sad as it is to concede, there's simply no point engaging with them at that point. You'll just waste time better dedicated to worthwhile endeavors.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Once again i ask why people enter a thread about a video if they haven’t even watched the video…

[jameseoakes]

Once again i ask why people enter a thread about a video if they haven’t even watched the video…

Honestly this just seems to have descended into an attempt to police what can and can't be talked about, like if you don't want to talk about it just don't enter the thread?

[jameseoakes]

And as for my comment on "might makes right", it was mentioned in an interview that Hermes (I thought it was Venat, but she does the same exact thing) and Emet-Selch make objective judgements against an entire people and have the power to make it happen whether the people want it or not. All 3 wield comparatively unstoppable power to have their will made manifest against an entire people whether that be out-of-context magic the Ancients have no defense against - Hermes, being a near-literal god with the power to split souls, the very world, and another near-literal god into 14 pieces - Venat/Hydaelyn, or being an omnipotent ghost who kills millions upon millions of people and shatters whole worlds to bring back the people who were sacrificed - Emet-Selch.

There might doesn't make them right, they're all monsters. Hell out of all of them Venat most has claim to that as she abuses her role to purge her own race for failing her standards and then sets herself up as a god to force her ideologies on to what she replaces them with. Hell the ancients have a system of government to keep so we only see people having a might makes right approch when then hold themselves above the rest of there species or after its fall.

[Absimiliard]

It fascinates me how these discussions always come down to "no, you're wrong." As if people can't be exposed to the same material and come to very different conclusions.

Different people have different ways of approaching things. I can't speak for others as to how they look at stuff, but I personally have no interest in the emotional "themes" of stories, nor concepts like the power of friendship trope. I'm only interested in the raw facts presented to me by the story. That's what my conclusions will be based on every time.

[Magikazam]

Longtime lurker here, avoided posting on this forum for so long because of how.....hostile it can be. But I feel like finally posting now. I am familiar with a lot of what's gone on here for the past couple years, just stayed out of it till now. But yeah let's just say I'm intimately familiar this subject, as I've not only witnessed arguments here, but have engaged in arguments about this on other platforms like reddit and 4chan.

Beside the fact that 4chan and Reddit are more hostile than this forum, I have a hard time believing that you lurked so much that you couldn't get past level 25 on the only class you played.

I also don't like the fact your whole post strawman me into ''Venat bad''. That is a gross oversimplification of the issues some people have with the story (even too I agree some people just hate Venat for whatever reason)

IMO the issue is that Venat actions are portrayed as a Heroic act of self-sacrifice when her methods are basically the same as Emet, Thordan, or Ilberd, who are rightfully depicted as evil lunatics.
Venat is a character I like and my only issue with her is how the writer portrayed her narrative.

That's not the problem. The problem is you guys are not here for discussion. You are here to repeat ad infinitum about how much you hate a specific character, and are completely unwilling to even humor that other points of view.

A minority of people from both side of the argument does have this problem, the majority of other people who talk about it have a more neutral point of view and actually can change their minds. It just that well, the loud minority are the ones who no-life the forum so you just have the impression it is always the same 5 people talking about the subject, yet it is not the case.

You guys have begun to go even further as seen with your creepy obsession with certain individuals here where you have been stalking them within their own personal discords and trying to track them down on other websites for some form of "gotcha" against them[

I could go on and on but I think I'll just end the post here. A SINGLE PERSON DID THIS. stop using ''You guys'' like we're a collective hivemind that helped him.


I will end by saying to everyone who keeps bringing up the argument of ''We're tired of talking of this, nothing new about the subject'', Just don't post in there then, Your half the reason this thread is being kept alive. If you would truly be tired of this, you wouldn't come and argue/complain every day. Just let it go and the thread will die.

[thegreatonemal]

It's on the second page. They are direct quotes from Venat about what she plans to do and her reasons. Been posted many times over the years this thing has been going on. Here is the quote in question

"With Meteion free to pursue her designs, 'tis only a matter of time until the Final Days are upon us.
We must be ready. From fortifying our defenses to securing our escape, there is much to be done.
In spite of this, we cannot allow the report that set this calamity in motion to become common knowledge. Were the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control.
I must carefully consider who can be trusted, and bring them into the fold.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't hesitate to call upon the Fourteen. However, it was the desire for a fair determination that drove Hermes to attempt to erase our memories; were he made aware of his actions, there is no telling whether he would remain a friend or become a foe.
Alternately, we might try to alienate him from the Convocation. Yet in doing so, we would deprive ourselves of a brilliant mind who would be invaluable in the crises to come.
Quite the dilemma... Which is why I must work independently of the Convocation.
[...]
We could not hope to survive the Final Days, much less take the battle to Meteion at her nest.
We must find a way to defeat despair. To unite and prepare as many as possible for the struggle ahead.
Heavy will weigh the burden of guiding this legion of souls...
Yet I have faith in mankind's potential. As long as he believes in himself, there is naught he cannot achieve. So I will not give up on him. On us.
You may find your world to be very different. Or perhaps the erasure of our friends' memories has sown the seeds of a conjunction between us.
We cannot know until the moment is at hand. So shall I strive to do my best, taking naught for granted as I walk my path."

@the other guy your tally is 13 now. As for why nobody is saying that poster is wrong is well...cuz they're not. You just don't agree with them. If they said something wrong I'd say something at the very least. However you and your buds have piled onto trying to discredit them because they said 4chan. Like you do with pretty much anybody that disagrees with you.