For those who main/semi-main a DPS (e.g. DNC, RDM) but like Healers...

[Renathras]

The 1-2-3 argument I specifically stated non-branching combos. This is would be PLD, DRK, GNB, maybe-DRG (since it's more than 3), RPR I think(?), MCH, and RDM. Basically all the ones auto-combo would fill out. Secondary from this would be where WAR and NIN would be placed (their -4 they use just like Healers do an average of once per 30 sec, though it's more flexible than the Healer ones since their durations can stack twice) and probably DRG would be placed more in this category. MNK and SAM are the only Jobs in the game that have combo systems that really branch (in the case of SAM) or are variable/mixed up (in the case of MNK; even if you view it as a static 21 step combo, this is still mixed up when you have Blitz since one of them calls for a 1-1-1 (3x same form, that is) to trigger one of the Nadi.

Let's see, what else...

Ty, you have made a proposal. But it's limited to matching your overall personal criteria, which as I said is you not understanding what other people want and telling them what they should want. "You think you do, but you don't", as a rather famous saying goes. As I've said, this stubbornness is why you can't propose a compromise that works, and why you aren't open to those that do. You want ever Healer to please you and your idea of good design, and you fail to understand that others have a different feeling on those issues. You think that they think like you do, just substituting "damage actions" for "buffing actions" or the like. This is why there's a fundamental failure to your proposals. It's also why people like you don't see why others actually enjoy a Job like SMN, thinking instead people must play it for reasons other than enjoyment, not understanding what it is they enjoy about it.

I think I proposed something once (not sure it as SMN or SCH) but that brought the spam down to somewhere around 50-60% of its button presses. I also think it's worth noting that most Jobs (even Healers) do use more than 10 buttons commonly. The question comes down to what is considered "Common" at that point. The top Kokytos clear right now has a 99 SCH (well above the average player, mind you), and their Broil casts are 56.91%, which is WELL below 80% in a 6:47 fight. (Also giggle worthy, amusingly under the damage tab, are 75 autoattacks. /bookwhack). Taking that exact same performance, you could make exactly one tweak and it would bring the Broil down to 50% (making Biolysis' duration 15 seconds, for example), without making any other changes. Alternatively, adding debuffs to dispell with Esuna, adding a second DoT even if it also had a 30 sec duration, or making Energy Drain a GCD, etc etc. It doesn't require complete reworks of Jobs to achieve that goal.

Though we could also do the SMN thing and just have 3 buttons you use while having them change context as you use other things. The top SMN group (also a 99) for Kokytos has 26.1% Gemshine and 21.1 Ruin 3 (total of 47.2%) are just those two buttons. Adding in the 20.25% for Astral Flow (guy oddly didn't use Rekindle) and you have 67.45%. Lots of people seem fine with that, so that would work. Granted, that's a DPS Job so it's not factoring in any healing in that.

The first SGE in that list is using Dosis 55.04% of button presses. And the top WHM I could find was using Glare 55.56% of their casts. And the top AST (Momo? THE Momo?) was using Malific for 51.50% of casts.

I'm not sure where this 80+% number is coming from, but it doesn't seem to be coming from Savage...

I'm not going to engage with you on the Support thing anymore, either. We both know what your answer is. I didn't put words in your mouth, I asked you to stat the words in your mouth. You refused, which led me to apply a little thing called logic; you refuse because you think the answer is something that would be detrimental to your cause, so which answer would that be? By inference, that is likely your answer. When given the chance to clarify where you could have said it was not, you refused to do so; something you'd do if that was, in fact, your answer. The stupid thing is, I said it was mine as well, meaning there's literally no way I'd use it against you, yet you keep insisting I would (slander against me) to avoid giving the answer that we both know is correct (fearing it would make you look bad; and at this point your refusal is what makes you look bad, especially when you're using your refusal to fuel attacks on me instead). You'd rather use your refusal to answer as an attack on me instead of stating the truth on the record because you fear it could be used against you later, something I don't have a history of doing and that I wouldn't do anyway since I've already stated I would try it out myself. (I try out just about every Job added to the game to at least see the general flow and what it brings to the table.) Either way, I won't continue to entertain this canard.

EDIT:

While I agree that oGCD CPM should be accounted for, Bard is atrocious even then.

Since there is zero reason ever to use Burst over Refulgent when the latter is possible (just as there is zero reason ever to hit any other non-prepped combo action), they together really just form a single filler action: Refulgent-over-Burst. That action then makes up almost 47% of Bard's CPM. That's near to Fire IV's portion even despite the hugely higher amount of oGCD casts on Bard.

And without those oGCD actions, it's obviously far worse: R>B would comprise ~86% of GCDs, or approaching 90% in sustained combat, because it solely competes with AA->BA and IJ(over SB->CS), whereas F4 makes up only ~38.5% of BLM's GCDs.

In short, I agree with the test, but if combo steps (rightly) aren't each considered a separate action, Bard would fail that exact test.

Huh.

Maybe I outta try out BRD someday. XD BRD is a Job I'd like to like, but the procs going off all over the place annoys me. What I think REALLY annoys me, though, is the song optimal durations. I like the idea that they fit together in a nice, interlocking pattern of 40-40-40...but that's a total lie and not at all close to the optimal usage, lol

BRD fails the test pretty handily, and SMN isn't far off it (and fails if you consider Ruin/Gemshine/Astral Flow uses together as the "3 button Job"). WAR is probably the next closest. The 1-2-3 is 35.83% of its buttons, Fell Cleave/Chaos is 21.25%. Those two together are 57.08%, and adding in Storm's Eye makes a total of 61.66.

These are a few more buttons, though. But in terms of "core spam in the rotation", Healers aren't exactly alone so much as they're the most extensive case of.

[Sebazy]

I'm not sure where this 80+% number is coming from, but it doesn't seem to be coming from Savage...

Half asleep so apologies if I'm missing a portion of something here, the 80% number above is GCD usage I think? Looking at the log you mention, that SCH has 140 broils vs ~15 non broil GCDs.

If you look at offensive casts, you're also getting into that sort of territory as well, the same SCH lands at 76% for example.

It goes without saying but the overall cast counts in logs will include oGCDs. Sadly I don't think there's a quick and easy way to filter down to purely GCD usage?

[Renathras]

Half asleep so apologies if I'm missing a portion of something here, the 80% number above is GCD usage I think? Looking at the log you mention, that SCH has 140 broils vs ~15 non broil GCDs.

If you look at offensive casts, you're also getting into that sort of territory as well, the same SCH lands at 76% for example.

It goes without saying but the overall cast counts in logs will include oGCDs. Sadly I don't think there's a quick and easy way to filter down to purely GCD usage?

Well, just doing the math.

I think it does come down to "oGCDs don't count", but that's like saying "AST has a low burst APM", which is obviously not a realistic position.

It does support the idea of making all oGCD heals into GCDs, though, since that would completely upend that system to where the nuke-spams were no longer the most used buttons. Firstly, since those oGCDs would now count no matter the metric used, and secondly because they would displace Gloialosis GCD use.

EDIT:

So I guess it comes down to "How far are you willing to go to get rid of nuke-spam?", since the absolute simplest way to accomplish that would be make all Healer Actions into Spells...which is obviously not what most people would want.

[Shurrikhan]

These are a few more buttons, though. But in terms of "core spam in the rotation", Healers aren't exactly alone so much as they're the most extensive case of.

Agreed. Which is why I wouldn't be happy with simply copying over the template of a job that's only one stepped removed from 'as awful as is theoretically possible' in these regards.

The 1-2-3 argument I specifically stated non-branching combos. This is would be PLD, DRK, GNB, maybe-DRG (since it's more than 3), RPR I think(?), MCH, and RDM. Basically all the ones auto-combo would fill out.

Fair.

Personally, I'd go one step further. Just roll into the finishers each use of its prior steps they required. For each Storm's Eye, for instance, you'd remove a cast of Heavy Swing and Maim from what'd be counted over to Storm's Path, and then see what portion of total and GCD CPM remains to the Storm's Path combo.

So, if a 4:15 parse has 36 Heavy Swings, 36 Maims, 23 Storm's Paths, and 13 Storm's Eyes, you'd have effectively 69 Storm's Path Combo GCDs and 39 Storm's Eye Combo GCDs in that time.

With a total cast count of 274, offensive cast count of 228, and a GCD action count of 173, then, Storm's Path Combo would make up 40% of GCDs, 30% of all offensive actions, and 25% of truly all actions.

BRD fails the test pretty handily, and SMN isn't far off it (and fails if you consider Ruin/Gemshine/Astral Flow uses together as the "3 button Job"). WAR is probably the next closest. The 1-2-3 is 35.83% of its buttons, Fell Cleave/Chaos is 21.25%. Those two together are 57.08%, and adding in Storm's Eye makes a total of 61.66.

Aye. Food for thought, though: I think WAR would, however, still barely pass that "takes 10+ actions to reach 80% of CPM" test. It's usually 11 actions to reach 80% of WAR's CPM, unless the particular WAR has skimped on defensives and never Sprints, at which point it still takes 10.

I'm not sure where this 80+% number is coming from, but it doesn't seem to be coming from Savage...

"Of GCDs" is almost always attached to that statement or very easily inferred from its prior context. In-game "casts" will typically refer to the categorically GCD-based Spells, after all, rather than just to any and all actions used.

XD BRD is a Job I'd like to like, but the procs going off all over the place annoys me.

If you don't want to track them, just keyswipe. Put RA next to BS and just swipe over both keys, RA to BS. Since RA requires the proc, it can't intercept the queue unless it's available.

Yep, the procs are that braindead.

So I guess it comes down to "How far are you willing to go to get rid of nuke-spam?", since the absolute simplest way to accomplish that would be make all Healer Actions into Spells...which is obviously not what most people would want.

It'd be the second simplest way in proposition (behind just reducing healing potencies or increasing incoming damage) but (A) not by far compared to simply including other offensive spells and (B) far from the simplest in practice since it produces new issues in required encounter reworks to support the lost mobility and dynamism.

It's kind of like arguing to greatly reduce traffic by making people not idiots. It's a simple idea, but not so simple to execute upon. The lack of responsive, mobile, and GCD-stackable oGCD heals would greatly change the viable tuning of fights.

[ty_taurus]

Ty, you have made a proposal. But it's limited to matching your overall personal criteria, which as I said is you not understanding what other people want and telling them what they should want.

Except it's extremely broad criteria that already fits most of the jobs in the game. You're just being confrontational for the sake of being confrontational. It's impossible for a set of criteria that broad to be incapable of creating something rewarding for any given player unless the player just doesn't like the game at all. It's like saying "I want a meal that offers some amount of nutritional value" and you're saying "but what about people who will only ever eat empty calories?"

I'm not sure where this 80+% number is coming from, but it doesn't seem to be coming from Savage...

Can you please read what I originally posted? The 80% came from counting how much the major tools of Black Mage and Gunbreaker added up to in regards to action usage, which was around 80%. I'm not talking about any one tool, I'm talking about ensuring that the majority of your gameplay is dedicated to at least around 10-12 actions rather than something like White Mage where around 80% of your gameplay is about 5 actions.

I'm not going to engage with you on the Support thing anymore, either. We both know what your answer is.

Me: I don't think it matters what I say, you've already made up your mind about what I want.
You: That's a cop out.
Me: Okay, fine. This is how I feel about the idea of a support role.
You: We both know what your real answer is.

What exactly is the lesson here, Ren? You did exactly what I said you'd do: ignore my response in favor of whatever answer you wanted me to say even when it was completely wrong.

[Renathras]

God I wish you wouldn't make bad faith posts.

It's impossible for a set of criteria that broad to be incapable of creating something rewarding for any given player unless the player just doesn't like the game at all.

WHY do you CONSTANTLY do this?

"It's so broad anything I would like is covered. The fact what you want isn't covered just means you don't like the game at all." is what you just said. While also calling me confrontational.

Can you please read what I originally posted?

No, this was an in general question. People very often say that Healers spam their basic spamnuke 80% of the time or so, but that number doesn't seem to match reality outside of some 6.0 chadding WHMs, maybe.

Me: I don't think it matters what I say, you've already made up your mind about what I want.
You: That's a cop out.
Me: Okay, fine. This is how I feel about the idea of a support role.
You: We both know what your real answer is.

Except...this isn't how that conversation went, is it?

Me: Here's a question, Ty.
You: I refuse to answer that question, you've already decided what I would say.
Me: No I haven't. That's why I asked the question.
You: Yes, you have! So I refuse to answer it.
Me: The only reason I can think of is if you would have answered it X. But please clarify if this is or is not what you think?
You: SEE! You've proven my point you've already decided what I would say!
Me: I literally asked you - twice - to say what your position is.
You: IT DOESN'T MATTER! YOU'VE ALREADY DECIDED WHAT I WOULD SAY!!

The lesson here is I DIDN'T do "exactly what (you) said (I)'d do". I literally asked you, I think THREE TIMES. Only when you refused to answer did I say I can only think of one reason offhand for you to do so, which would be if your answer was X. But even there, I gave you the freedom to clarify.

Instead of clarifying, you chose YET AGAIN to not answer the question, and YET AGAIN insisted that I was doing a thing I wasn't doing.

When I ask you - multiple times - a question, it's because I'm NOT "deciding what you would say".

I didn't ignore your ANSWER because you didn't give one.

And I didn't ignore your RESPONSE, I addressed it directly, calling it a cop out.

For the love of god, man, at least don't outright lie. <_<

The lesson here is: When someone asks you a question, give a good faith answer. You might be surprised how well things work out when you AREN'T being evasive and duplicitous. And the worst part is, as I said before, it's even pointless for you to BE evasive on this. I outright said I'd try out a Support role/Job if one was introduced, so that should have diffused any concern you had that if you answered you'd try it out I'd call you "not a real healer".

...that and that I don't say of people here "you aren't a real healer". Both you and Roe have used that canard, insisting I do it, when I'm the one of us that HASN'T.

[ty_taurus]

God I wish you wouldn't make bad faith posts.

I wish you wouldn't make bad faith posts.

WHY do you CONSTANTLY do this?

Because...

You. Are. Wrong. Say it with me.

You are treating what should be general standards of class design in a cooldown-based RPG as some sort of hyper-specific playstyle. Ensuring a job doesn't spent too much time spamming any one button and regularly engages with healthy number of actions should be the standard for every job. In Ren-Land, perhaps that is an unreasonable request, like asking a group of people who don't know how to read or play music to man the violin, the trumpet, and the flute, and you're here crying out for the option to play the triangle. But in the real world, It's asking for basic standards of job design. I know you don't like standards, but game designers shouldn't care about players who don't want to engage with the combat system, because then why make that combat system to begin with? If I want to appeal to you and people who are as disinterested in the combat system as you are, I would make FFXIV into an idle game where each job has one action.

I sympathize with players who want to heal without DPSing. I do not sympathize with players who want a job that can be played with 1-4 buttons where the game is designed around having around 28-32.

Except...this isn't how that conversation went, is it?

Except it is how the conversation went. You just didn't read. You remember when you tried to burn me at the stake for glossing over one of your posts and responding to it?

First of all, I'm not looking to play a role on principle. What I care about is what the job is and how it plays. I have nothing against a support role.

^ The simple answer I gave first.

The fact that you decided to answer for me is exactly why I say that you've made up your mind on what I want. Is that not obvious to you? You're wrong by the way, because your answer severely lacks context for what happens to the other roles. In your hypothetical world where the support role is added as a 4th, are the healers fixed, or do they stay hot feces for the rest of eternity? Because if your idea of adding the support role is specifically to allow the healers to remain in the ass tier of design quality, then obviously I'm going to go for support because there is no healer role to go to. If the healer role is allowed to be fixed, then I'm going to play the healer role and would probably be a Sage one-trick. Would I try the support jobs? I suppose technically I would when I level them to 100, since I level every job to max level, but I'd probably never actively try to play it or queue as it. Depending on what the new caster DPS will be, I might either make that my back-pocket DPS for when I can't heal (like if I'm doing treasure maps with my FC and someone else wants to heal) or maybe I'd keep that as Dancer. If the caster is Onmyoji, there's a good chance I might swap to that if the healer role continues to be defecated on because I like that concept. Whether or not Dancer remains in the physical ranged DPS role or the new support role is irrelevant to me.

^ The detailed answer I gave second after you continued to tell me to just admit I'd play support. If you want to crucify me on the forums, try actually reading what I write first. You are the liar here.