What if we designed other Tank's abilities like they were made for WAR?

[Kabooa]

Agreed on reworking and revitalizing Dark Arts, though. But for that to see much value, we'd also have to bring back ways for the other tanks, too, to trade offense for sustain or vice versa (which I'd also like).

Could be a fun thread.

"Add One Mechanic to your Job: Tank edition"

[Marxam]

Agreed on reworking and revitalizing Dark Arts, though. But for that to see much value, we'd also have to bring back ways for the other tanks, too, to trade offense for sustain or vice versa (which I'd also like).

Remove the cost of TBN, DA costs 3k MP, put DA on a 7 sec recast with only 3 secs to use it (just long enough to not have it up for back to back gcd usage) and maybe put TBN on a longer cd but with 2 charges and problem solved. Something like 20 secs with 2 charges but it no longer offers the mp cost/refund since that has moved to DA. DA doesn't need to be anything more complicated than buffing abilities since we have moved away from utility as a whole and it's definition has changed from what it used to mean. Utility back then was things like TP regen, aggro tools like smokescreen or cc like blind. Utility now is just party dmg buffs.

Regardless, some examples of DA usage if it existed in the game today:

DA + TBN = 25% HP shield and 3k MP refund and small HP heal 400-500 potency
DA + Dark Mind = 30% magic mitigation
DA + Oblation = 20% mitigation
DA + Siphon strike = MP restore and MP regen hot
DA + Souleater = heal 100% of dmg dealt
DA + Stalwart Soul = cure potency of 100 on each enemy hit

A lot of these examples are things that could have worked if DA existed as a button similar to infuriate, but unlike infuriate, its not a gauge spender but rather opens up options in your tool kit. This is how they could have made a "WAR-clone" without actually copy-pasting. Both tanks revolve around a singular button but both have vastly different approaches. WAR's infuriate only gives you a gauge spender which helps proc crit heals when in BW whereas DRK's Dark Arts opens up your options to your current rotation. If DA worked as I stated above your standard 123 now has the options of either more MP for more darkness spams or HP for more sustain.

DA would also give you the options with you defensive cds when mix and matching them. Tank buster coming up and need more upfront mitigation, DA + TBN. Tank buster is a magic multi hitter, DA + DM. DPS getting hit with a spicy dot, DA + Oblation. Ultimately the idea is that DA coming back will only add to the job and return the flexibility it once had. Shadow spam will still exist but now you have an option not to do it since DA exists.

[Shurrikhan]

Could be a fun thread.

"Add One Mechanic to your Job: Tank edition"

DRK: Dark Arts/Dark Passenger

Dark Arts: Spend MP to enhance your next GCD action, adding value (in some not-directly-offensive way) through some new effect.

Dark Passenger: Spend MP to follow up on an oGCD action used in the last few seconds by hitting that same button again.

Effect: DRK gets more APM and a margining mechanic (Passenger after CnS and Shadowbringer, at minimum), and is more able to more its resources between different types of outputs/utilities, deepening a portion of its identity (as the resourceful, deliberate, and cunning no-holds-barred 'bastard' tank).

WAR: Wrath/Abandon

Context:

• Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone are no longer replaced by Fell Cleave and Decimate; the latter just become new, more offensively oriented options at the same time the defensive benefits of the first two are slightly increased.
• Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone heal for damage dealt instead of a flat amount.
  
  
• Inner Release separated from Berserk and now instead simply doubles all gauge generation while halving all gauge spending. It has been turned into a 90s CD that lasts 15 seconds, while Berserk now increases crit chance and chance to be crit for 10 seconds (attacks which cannot crit simply have their damage increased instead). [TBR; the more Berserk-y Berserk effect is still spitball.]
• Enhanced Infuriate changed to Seeing Red, which allows you to rush the cooldown of Berserk or Inner Release by 1 second for the cooldown of both Berserk and Inner Release by 1 second for every 10 Gauge spent.
  
  
• Upheaval, Orogeny, and Onslaught again cost Beast Gauge, and all spenders now have a minimum to maximum amount that they can spend at a time, based on current Beast Gauge.
• For instance, Fell Cleave spends 75% of available Gauge to a minimum of 25 (so, 25 to 75 Gauge) for proportionate potency(-over-average-ppgcd), while Onslaught costs 5 to 15 Gauge.
  
  
• Warrior now passively drains or gains Beast Gauge over time until coming to its resting point of 50 Gauge. As such, one has to balance the advantages of (A), say, getting as big a Fell Cleave as possible for the additional ppgcd and higher ceilings for burst eHP or offense and (B) maximizing overall Gauge generation.
  
  
• Upheaval maximum spending increased and its damage again scales more greatly with one's current and maximum HP, but at twice the intensity it did in Stormblood.
• Another gauge spender added (some sort of enraged channel of blows) and/or Orogeny made more interesting.

Spending Beast Gauge on Defiance Gauge (Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone, Inner Chaos, Chaotic Cyclone) Spenders grants a granular amount of Wrath, increasing your Tenacity, Maximum HP, and Leech based on damage dealt. Spending Beast Gauge on Deliverance skills (Fell Cleave, Decimate, Inner Chaos, Chaotic Cyclone) grants a granular amount of Abandon, increasing your Critical Hit. Additionally, all Beast Gauge spending grants an amount of Attack Speed and Movement Speed based on gauge spent.

These benefits generated fade linearly over time (e.g., bursting to 20% and fading to 0% over 20 seconds if no further effects come in; any number of applications may occur simultaneously).

Note that Defiance skills (Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone) have a high amount of innate Leech (heals for % of damage dealt), while Deliverance skills (Fell Cleave and Decimate) have none except as provided through Wrath or other external effects. As such, the higher potencies of Fell Cleave and Decimate benefit more from the Leech generated by Defiance skills and Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone benefit more from crit chance, since they can crit either

Effect: Warrior is now the ramping behemoth job for whom survival depends on timely offense and accumulation.

PLD: Sword/Shield Oath

Paladin now generartes Oath Gauge from both attacks or defense, gaining a flat amount of Oath from blocks and a variable amount from damage nullification, and gaining a flat amount per attack and variable amount based on physical damage dealt. Oath may be spent to rush defensive CDs (spend gauge to instantly complete their cooling times early) or enhance them, or to skip a rush a combo step or follow up an attack for an additional effect.

The more Oath is generated from one source (from Sword [defensive generators] or from Shield [offensive generators]), the more Oath can be spent at a time for the respective effects.

Effect: Essentially, Paladin remains as flexible as before, but can follow a particular route as either a bastion or crusader type to increasingly pull off some unique levels of defensive or offensive strength, though at cost to combined/simultaneous value.

GNB: Aetherocharge and Cartridges (reworked)

Powder Gauge's function as a pace-setter for burst actions replaced by a more granular Aethercharge gauge built towards Continuation. Those "cartridges" themselves are now used instead as consumable, skill-altering augmentations for the gunblade, based on what form of Aether they've been charged with. Empty cartridges can be charged by absorbing aether as an enemy attack is charging, shortly after the enemy's attack (gauge generated depends on damage absorbed relative to base HP at min ilvl) via Draw, or spending Aethercharge to typify one's Cartridge based on your recent offensive or utility actions. Cartridge types available regardless of enemy include Galeforce Charge, Polarity Charge, Shellshock Charge, and Hardlight Charge. Each adds a general buff (like additional movement and attack speed based on current Charge level), an additional effect to one or more actions, and a unique charge spender (such as no-CD gap-closers and combos therefrom).

Charge drains slowly over time but can be generated to a varying degree by your weaponskills or other actions, based on Cartridge type. Charge can be spent all at once via Burst Strike, emptying the Cartridge to allow it to be retypified while dealing massive damage based on the Charge stored. Starting at level 64, one can cycle between Cartridges using Cycle Cartridge; by level 84, one can cycle between 3. However, note that each Cartridge will drain individually and simultaneously, so there is a cost to that utility, meaning that one will probably want to let at one drain and recharge it burstily later if it's needed.

Effect: Imagine a combination of Nero's DMC5 mechanic and rotating mechanic-granting duration-consumable buffs a la Heavensward Blood of the Dragon, such that GNB is now a stance-dancing, stance-forming madman of tremendous versatility despite an average size button count. And GNB is just now utterly gigabrain instead of just uniquely a bit clunky.

_______

Overall Effects: DRK now has the most immediate and active/deliberate utility, WAR and GNB have the most involved macrorotations (managed/salvaged/gambled line-ups between CDs, gauge, and GCDs); WAR has the most gauge management and combined eHP + DPS ramping; GNB has the most soft utility and versatility and the most fight-specific milestones for gleaning damage and/or further utility and would generally appear the most gigabrain; and PLD has the highest highs of offense or defense, though at cost, able to pull off some cheese strats no one else could possibly manage.

[Kabooa]

DRK: Dark Arts/Dark Passenger.

Oddly enough I think you could accomplish this as is with just "Improved Dark Arts" on the current Dark Knight. Talked about it some in a random thread like a year+ ago, where the Dark Arts from TBN is just consumed for the various OGCDs, Carve/Spit, Salted Earth, Abyssal Drain (unlocked from C/S), and whatever else they add. A future proofed mechanic that also divides itself from the 2min meta, as you can only get so many Dark Arts in a given period, so you can try and greed more, but it would ideally always be more beneficial to use an OGCD with one rather than without one, even under buff windows.

WAR: Wrath/Abandon.

I think Abandon/Wrath would be better utilized as enhancer stacks. By using Defiance skills, you build Abandon, and by using Deliverance skills you build Wrath. You create a push and pull style of spending for defense to set up offensive windows, and spending on offense to set up defense windows. From here you could go for a pendulum style as something I would favor for White Mage but can still work here.

Something like - I build Wrath 1. Use a stage 1 enhanced Defiance skill to spend Wrath 1, and swing to Abandon 2. Use a stage 2 enhanced Deliverance skill and swing to Defiance 3. Use a stage 3 enhanced Defiance skill and reset to 0.

Apply the same idea that you build bonuses based on which stage of Wrath/Abandon you're in for all your basic skills, so you have planned areas of extended empowered states, and utilizing Beast gauge to cash in / build back up. Reminds me a lot of how TK Monk used to play where being at Stage 3 was the preference, but resetting had such a large boon and rebuilding was made to be short enough that you regularly dumped to 0 and rebuilt to 3.

PLD: Sword/Shield Oath.

Having trouble picturing this.

GNB: Aetherocharge and Cartridges .

While I don't agree with the hard specifics, the general idea of Gunbreaker rotating through cartridges that provide different effects to their base stats and their spenders is something I'm absolutely on board with. I would remove the Charges depreciating, as I personally find the idea of overcapping forcing a response to be good. Burst Strike consuming all charges I'm 50/50 on. On one hand, moving into "Hardlight" and dumping a full cartridge into Burst Strike while generating a superbarrier for doing so sounds awesome.

On the other, I fear it encourages staying in whatever the "Damage" cartridge is and just cycling to Burst dump and then go back into, I don't know...Shellshock sounds like the Crit stance :P.

[Shurrikhan]

While I don't agree with the hard specifics, the general idea of Gunbreaker rotating through cartridges that provide different effects to their base stats and their spenders is something I'm absolutely on board with.

Fair enough. T'was all spitball anyways, haha.

On the other, I fear it encourages staying in whatever the "Damage" cartridge is and just cycling to Burst dump and then go back into, I don't know...Shellshock sounds like the Crit stance. :P

In my head, Shellshock would still be dual purpose. It'd be the one that had the highest consumption damage, but would tie damage dealt to target-suppression -- i.e., it's both the shell/armor-breaker... and shocks (as if an artillery shell exploded on them). /shrug

The general idea was that any Cartridge with a notable damage advantage could only be formed following certain offensive CDs and most of that offensive value would come from consuming it, thus making it at most a small overall DPS bump to include it per 2 minutes or whatever as a milestone (e.g., forming and burning it during the 2-minute raid buffs if you could afford to go little Aetherocharge for the moment or the mitigation it provides also wouldn't go to waste).

Apart from that, all Cartridges would have about equal mixtures of damage, sustain, and utility (that which cannot easily or directly be quantified into sustain or damage value and generally feels a bit more 'fun' and 'extra'), though in rather different ways.

Burst Strike consuming all charges I'm 50/50 on.

Charge (granular/centigrade gauge), rather than charges (discrete, lower-maximum values), to be clear. And I should have been clearer that you'd have new pseudo-burst and rotational options to take Burst Strike's place.

So, really, I guess it's just that you're getting a new skill that's more akin to an infrequent nuke that you can rush at cost if you know the fight will soon end. What Burst Strike provided to gameplay before, you'd still have in some new, but Cartridge-dependent, form.

Draw/Infuse would have two charges, of maybe 20-40s, in place of Bloodfest (but obviously they're acquired far earlier on, so that you can get access to the actions and effects unique to typified Cartridges -- as compared to just raw Charge), and those would ultimately be what let you recover from blowing your whole Cartridge (though less vitally after you get access to a 2nd or 3rd cartridge simultaneously held).

As for it blowing all the charge, that just seemed the most thematic way of clearing the Cartridge of its additional effects, reverting it to a raw state to be retypified.

On one hand, moving into "Hardlight" and dumping a full cartridge into Burst Strike while generating a superbarrier for doing so sounds awesome.

That's the idea, yup.

Having trouble picturing this [Sword/Shield Oath]

I'll probably do a "Diversifying Tanks" thread at some point that will include a few sample scenarios. It's similar to the suggested Wrath/Abandon mechanic, but with options to devote oneself more towards either single direction, or to more deliberately swap between them.

I think Abandon/Wrath would be better utilized as enhancer stacks. By using Defiance skills, you build Abandon, and by using Deliverance skills you build Wrath. You create a push and pull style of spending for defense to set up offensive windows, and spending on offense to set up defense windows. From here you could go for a pendulum style as something I would favor for White Mage but can still work here.

I feel like the suggested version already applies plenty of push and pull / pendulum swing, just with a bit more freedom / space for ingenuity... so long as damage intake isn't stupidly low (which then would be a gamewide problem to be addressed first and separately, imo). But I was likely less clear than I should have been in that example if that didn't come across. I'll try to address that in future mock-ups.

Oddly enough I think you could accomplish this as is with just "Improved Dark Arts" on the current Dark Knight... where the Dark Arts from TBN is just consumed for the various OGCDs, Carve/Spit, Salted Earth, Abyssal Drain...

I wouldn't mind that as a bandaid fix for now, but I'd rather have that complete on-demand freedom for technical utility of a Dark Arts that exists independently of TBN.

[Rithy255]

Warrior vs Paladin
Generally you want to always pick a Warrior over a Paladin, The only real benefit PLD has over Warrior is Passage of arms, even then the benefit is situational at best as you're not always going to line up the cone with the party... You also can hold two stacks of your mitigation due to how oath gauge works, but generally this is only useful in double tank buster situations or being more flexible with your charges, The Devs likely consider Cover & Clemency actual benefits to PLD likely why its been awful all expansion, personally they need to make those abilities have more general use, I know passage of arms will likely stay more situational with its cone because "pretty animation".

Warrior Vs Gunbreaker
Gunbreaker defensive wise is pretty comparable to PLD in a lot of ways, but in general PLD has slightly more utility, but the thing is Gunbreaker does a lot of damage so it actually has a place in teams while PLD's utility isn't really enough to stand out, compared to Warrior? I think it's in a decent spot, but It's a lot more difficult to play then Warrior even if tanks are "easy"

Warrior Vs Dark Knight
Both follow very similar rotations, DK is the OCGD spammer version of warrior generally, but does less damage right now currently, Defensive wise? yeah its pretty good actually you got so many mitigations on Dark Knight, Dark Mind and TBN might just be really badly designed abilities but they do work really well for raiding content. Honestly Dark Knight is a good defensive pick over the other tanks if played correctly, Not to say in casual content its well made defensively, it's kit is basically designed purposely around savage raids more then any other job.


I think in general Warrior isn't as "OP" as people make it out to be, but I will say I dislike how much group healing it has, shake it off shouldn't give a regen (PLD should at least lore wise lol), Warrior's aoe healing is also unfun for casual content, Healers should actually have to heal.

I'd say the main issue with tanks lies in PLD being so underwhelming while it seems Warrior gets good treatment over other tanks, I think Dark Knights design is due for a overhaul So is a lot of PLD's Kit, but I don't think it's 100% a warrior issue, but I would love it if they cut down on warriors AOE healing and removed the Regen. I'd also hope they would aim to make Dark knight do slightly more then warrior as it requires more work.

[Marxam]

I'd say the main issue with tanks lies in PLD being so underwhelming while it seems Warrior gets good treatment over other tanks, I think Dark Knights design is due for a overhaul So is a lot of PLD's Kit, but I don't think it's 100% a warrior issue, but I would love it if they cut down on warriors AOE healing and removed the Regen. I'd also hope they would aim to make Dark knight do slightly more then warrior as it requires more work.

The irony is that WAR healing is actually at its weakest albeit, most accessible to newer players at the cost of reducing the skill ceiling. Originally, WAR healing was based on a % of dmg dealt. Inner Beast used to heal for 100% of dmg dealt (after 2.1) and 300% on ARR release. Hit a training dummy right now and that was exactly what you healed for or multiply it by 3 to get the original WAR heal effect. You also have to consider that originally, Berserk increased attack power so you dealt more dmg and thus received more healing. Berserk used to a 50% atk power increase only to eventually get nerfed to 20% before just being replaced by IR via trait.

Healing potency caps the amount of healing you receive with the only exception of being crits and you only get 4 heals per use of BW/NF, assuming you hit all your gcds. It also removes the "healing" you get from vengeance's counter effect and ogcds since those deal dmg as well but are not counted as weaponskills so that's less healing overall. In general they made it much easier not to mess up your self sustain but as a trade off the skill required in executing high heals like timing your ogcds with gcds has been nerfed. Pair that with the forced rng of direct hit crits and this is actually the weakest iteration of WAR healing currently. They compensated by adding regens to skills like equilibrium and SiO. Both a bit redundant but still nice changes in terms of utility.

However, you are right in saying that WAR only looks far more superior because the other tanks look bad.

[Oizen]

Well to be honest I don't think its WAR's -self- healing thats overpowered. Its WAR's other features. The skills I view as bloated are Nascent Flash, and Shake it Off.

Nascent Flash is wayyyy better a skill than TBNOblation, HoC or HS when used on an ally, Its not like those have any direct benefits to the tank who cast it other than keeping said ally alive. Not WAR though, its still healing itself WHILE ALSO pocketing said target. This double dip is insane.WAR very much can act as healer #3 or pocket another player indefinitely in some content. Something the other tanks just cant do.

Shake it off is more straightforward, its just overpowered compared to the other options, this skill has so much value compared to the others, and also compounds the previous issue more of allowing WAR to just team sustain far better than the other tanks. I really don't think this skill needed to be given a regen a few patches ago, but here we are. Its also bizzarre to me that Paladin has to pay for its lesser utility yet WAR gets rewarded for it.

Equalibirum feels like it doesn't really have a counterpart on other tanks as well, and I'm kinda surprised they decided it needed "Additional Effect: Steal GNB's Aurora", but if it was just this it probably be fine.

[GoatOfWar]

Browsing the forums and other online discussion platforms it just seems like Warriors want to be the best at everything, and will gatekeep other tanks for the sake of ''uniqueness'' when they don't play the inferior tanks.
I highly doubt they'll ever accept meaningful changes to the other tanks. Jank makes them unique, you see. Don't homogenise my game!
Warrior getting the same, and better tools than the other tanks while having no jank of it's own is different though, because apparently Warrior really needs to be the best at everything.

[ValkyrieL]

I think shake it off got the healing regen as a result of P8S, bleeding effect was a pain for healers and shake had no coverage besides initial hit. Also shake is not always better than HoL like many claim, there are many raid wides where HoL double dips on mitigation that can save you....regen is not going to save you if you never survive the hit in the 1st place.