6.41+/7.0 — SE, if you won't buff RDM damage, at least improve usability and utility

[remiff]

I think the Red Mage currently needs some relatively minor changes before the release of patch 7.0, although they probably won't do it or only do it concerning potency adjustments.

Changing Embolden to provide a personal 5% increase in physical/magical damage could be a good idea, and the same change for the 5% Manafication could work well too, the buff would be minor but sufficient.

Moreover, adding 2 stacks to the Acceleration spell and in return increasing the cooldown from 55 seconds to 60 seconds per stack, would give the Red Mage a bit more mobility tools during movement-intensive phases.

The issue is that the Red Mage is excessively difficult to balance because they made the Summoner far too mobile,
as a result, they balanced the casters with the phys ranged DPS, except for the Black Mage which has been in a decent spot since patch 6.4.

However, the Red Mage and the Summoner are the only two job in the''caster category'' with team utility (rez,mitigation,heal, hot,etc,...) so they are balanced closes to each other, even though the Red Mage requires more effort to provide equivalent DPS,
the problem lies in the fact that as long as the Summoner remains like a ranged physical DPS while it's supposed to be a caster, balancing the casters will remain problematic.

[Rongway]

Moreover, adding 2 stacks to the Acceleration spell and in return increasing the cooldown from 55 seconds to 60 seconds per stack, would give the Red Mage a bit more mobility tools during movement-intensive phases.

It sounds like you mean adding 2 more charges? This would at best only give 2 extra uses in a battle; sometimes only 1 extra use because you're also suggesting a longer charge time. The greatest increase from charges is when an action gains its first extra charge, as having charges lets an action stay on cooldown forever without wasting any uses. Beyond that first extra charge, each charge only grants one additional use per combat for most combats. And I'm probably going to use those two extra charges to skip two Verfastspells in my opener for an extra 100p. Occasional cases may arise where the downtime in a fight is so long that you get that one additional use per charge again; but in the vast majority of scenarios, adding charges beyond the initial 2 does not meaningfully increase usability or frequency throughout the combat.

[SaberMaxwell]

I'm against faster cast speed in any way shape or form that is not in some way tied to a self casting haste buff. Casters are casters and should have to interact with the meta game of casting: sliding, prepositioning, plotting position dozens of moves ahead are what make the job fun. I am vehemently opposed to any proposed idea that Red Mage should also be baby's first caster or be built with the idea of being a healer's side hustle job.

I also personally do not like any idea that intentionally "fixes" the skills that affect Red Mage's rhythm. Making sure you're on the right rhythm to hit Fleche and Contre is one of those tiny optimizations that I love. The two stacks of accel exist mainly to help you bounce between rhythms as needed, and secondarily as a movement utility. Changing RDM's melee combo also has to take this rhythm in mind since as it is, the combo lasts 12.7s--roughly 5 gcds, which changes the rhythm you're on. It's fun to keep track of these things in a fight.

That said I'm not blind to reality nor do I think all of E_u's ideas are entirely objectionable. Fixing Reprise solves all of RDM's mobility issues outright, though I think reducing cost and gcd to 3/3 and 2.2s respectively would be a better fix. It also allows Red Mage that final "execute" optimization it once had where, if you knew a boss would die before your last melee combo, you could start lobbing reprise instead of casting.

I'm beyond vehemently against the idea of dots for any reason.

I'm indifferent about aoe. I just don't care that its backwards flavor wise from st, it doesn't bother me. But it won't bother me if they change it either I guess.

Combo consolidation...eh. I don't like the idea. I see why some would. Its whatever.

Getting rid of jolt...interesting idea. I'd need to play with that to form a real opinion, "the floor is jolt 2" was one of my favorite meta games of the past but whatever.

[Valence]

Overall I am against creating more gimped DPS jobs that cannot compete on damage with the "main group". It is even worse when it cannot compete on damage participation with other jobs within the same role, because there is literally no safeguards against this in the battle system balance to make up for it, unlike between roles (aka party bonus, as much as it's ridiculous and feels extra bad, it kinda works as a bandaid).

I am against giving RDM even more party mitigation utility for the simple reason that this threads even more on rphys identity. Maybe I'm fighting a battle that's already lost there tbh, since every job and their moms can bring party mitigation those days, but still not in the same amount than rphys and tanks. On top of it, in the current damage meta, party mitigation is a fluke when it comes to job and role balance. Nobody cares. What matters is damage contribution, and it's not going to change any time soon without significant (re)-additions to the battle system. I'll fight tooth and nail against that kind of move as a rphys player, because when people believe that committing even further on non damage party support for jobs like RDM will somehow increase their desirability (it won't, because it's not damage contribution), what it will in effect achieve is actually just bring more nails to the rphys coffin already. I however support giving RDM esuna like BRD has Warden's, and make the fight use those more like in P10S or TEA, because that kind of niche little things are flavorful and neat.

Note on burst: casters have never had especially high burst potential, with perhaps the exception of summoner, and even then it was outright beaten by many others. For instance, HW and SB MCH was the highest burst job the game had ever seen by far until the recent introduction of EW DRK/Nin, and all of those are not casters. Therefore I do not believe in the slightest that casters have ever been designed with a high burst in mind. High damage perhaps, but they have never especially beaten the crap out of everybody else either. If anything, they've always been pretty good at consistent and sustained damage.

[Jade_Tyrant]

Organizing my response by section (and inside a big "click to show" block) since that seems a reasonable way to respond. Condensing things I don't have much to say on to try and fit this all into two posts...

Like with little to say: 2-1/2, 5-1b

Neutral/nothing to say: 4-2/3, 5-2b

2-3) I don't particularly mind not having an option to "sit" on a proc, but being able to more freely balance the gauge isn't a bad idea. Not entirely sure this makes Red Mage much more approachable, but can see the merit in taking away the "bad" option.

2-4) Against this, though I do understand the reasoning. I personally very much enjoy the optimization of trying to keep my oGCDs aligned with my Dualcast window. That said... I do understand that it's a "pain point" of RDM for some. Charges could also result in trying for 2 uses of each in burst.

Only worry with Manafic is the same as above, 2 charges resulting in trying to fit two uses in burst (specifically pot windows for this).

2-5a/b) Feels unnecessary; Dualcast doesn't really feel inferior to 1.5s slidecast windows. Wouldn't be up in arms over it, but feels like an overreaction.

2-6) Making Enchanted Reprise into an actual non-wasteful filler movement option doesn't seem bad. Still inoptimal, but no longer actively harmful; could potentially help align Dualcast windows (if no 2-4). Merging SkSpd/SpSpd would be better though.

2-7/2-8/3-1) Seem fine. Entire combo at 30 seems unneeded, but not important. Full cost on combo start, less fond of.

3-2) Seems fine, no SpSpd could be a gearing annoyance with rings tho.

3-3) Personally, I'm against this change. I understand the flaws it creates with the dev's balance, but it's fun to help peel people off the floor! I like it! I don't really want to be in-line with Summoner. I won't say it's my FAVORITE part of the job, and I'll still keep playing even if rez mage gets nerfed into the ground, but it will definitely be disappointing.

If it does need to be nerfed, I'd prefer something closer to Possibility B, though hopefully with a less punishing MP cost so we can at least get off two raises in a row, rather than "one raise and then you're out of MP". A means you can't raise multiple people in a row at all (and makes Red Mage worse at rezzing than SMN), and C is "just make RDM = SMN for DPS rez" (plus Vercure nerf in solo content).

4-1) Mostly agree, but it would be funny...

4-5) I'd love for RDM to fully commit to Support DPS, but I feel like they need to add more meaningful support to RDM for it to actually fill that role without it feeling like a joke.

[Jade_Tyrant]

5) Understand these are just examples and not "100% should be this", but responding same as above.

5-1a) Vercure+Verraise earlier good! Veresuna feels like a joke; rarely useful, DPS loss to use.

5-1c) Big addition, but I'm a fan? Seems like it'd need a lot of tuning, but I like the concept. "Auto-transfer" would likely just turn into "always active even on dead" though.

5-1d) Like the idea, though gauge requirements for Frazzle could be gotten rid of, especially to keep RDM more "useable" like you talk about earlier in the thread.

5-2a) No real issue with backwards nature of the AOE stuff, but wouldn't mind the change. For elements...

I also would like to see the other elements, but my proposal would be to use them for AOE. Blizzard and Water could be their AOE spell line, though I'd honestly pick Water and Aero or Water and Thunder for that.

Personally I want to see Water and Ice used because we don't already have those. Other elements are already present and make sense where they are.

5-2c) Line to target makes optimal use more annoying on controller.

5-2d) Corps-a-Corps as Thunderclap would be rad and I'd love it!

5-3a) Said above that I'd like to see Water/Ice on AOE, but here would be alright I guess. Not entirely fond of a second layer of procs on top of the existing set, but given that it would just replace existing spells already being used, not terrible outside of "more RNG in RDM's dmg output." Healing/MP regen bonuses are RNG, so unreliable and not able to be used with any real intent.

5-3b/c) DOT removal says B will never happen. Dancing Blade isn't that interesting to me, since not fond of the "fake DOT" summons. Random ticks for mana uninteresting as well, makes gauge balancing more random and annoying.

5-4a) Don't think RDM needs a mini-phase, but not against it. Not sure if it's "5 instant cast spells" or not? Non-melee as the "main" burst feels weird, pushes RDM away from the "melee caster" flavor. Could work though.

...also BLM players would riot if we got Ultima first.

5-4b) Unlike most "full of holes" leveling job rotations, melee combo just takes Chainspell's place before. Would prefer Acceleration not get another change, I like it currently.

6)

- Gauge generation issues: agree with "too much gauge gen without enough sinks, then too many melee combos".
- Combo cooldown: Not a fan. Limiting melee combos seems annoying, personally.
- Fleche and Contre Sixte options: Not a fan. Already wasn't a fan of charges, and making them gauge options just removes oGCD balancing more.
- Corps-a-corps/Displacement: Use as movement tools is already low, feel like this would just drastically reduce their usage overall.

[...]the 20/20 mana cost of E. Moulinet doesn't match Manafication. [...] Alisaie actually has an interesting AoE combo animation with roses, that resembles Resolution somehow that I thought it would be incorporated into the Endwalker AoE combo, either as a stage or as a finisher.

AOE Enchanted combo being 50/50 would be nice minor QoL.

Alisaie has two AOE buttons: Vermillion Pledge (rose Resolution LB) + Crimson Savior (circle rose slash around her). We already have VP in Resolution, but Crimson Savior could be a neat part of the AOE Enchanted combo.

[Semirhage]

The most plausible-seeming change is for Red Mage damage output to remain roughly static, while gameplay factors that currently make Red Mage's rotation significantly more burdensome and/or difficult to execute compared to Summoner are adjusted, softened, or reduced.

While I know the most reasonable expectation for RDM's "solutions" are to dumb the job down as is the direction with every single other "fix" Square Enix introduces, I don't think we need to make that suggestion for them.

I can -expect- the job to be dumbed down but still ask for it to be designed well, with good damage output and actual utility. I know railing against the stupidification of the game's combat system is futile. I don't do it for *results*, I do it for the told-you-so satisfaction later.

[Rychu]

This post is much more in-depth than I ever expected for trying to find solutions to Red Mage. I really appreciate the different solutions E_U gave. I agree with many of these changes, but do have some quibbles. I will give my take on these below:

A): Rezzing is an extremely contentious topic in the community because it is the biggest cause of frustration in higher raiding content due to the increased prevalence of body checks, but removing rezzing entirely would harm the casual experience which is also just as valuable. I heavily disagree with the proposed solution of increasing the rez cost to 7200 as RDM already struggle immensely with MP management if even one regular rez gets cast, no even counting 2 or more. Ruining the gameplay enjoyment of the RDM just to incentivize them to not rez is bad design. I like the idea of rezzing generating mana to make it less of a tax on Red Mages but I think 5 mana it too little, factoring mana cost and what would have been generated if the RDM just kept DPSing the mana generated should be anywhere between 10-20. My personal solution would be to have VerRaise have 3 charges with a cooldown of 60-90 secs each just so that casual content gets its multi rez while not also giving unlimited rez for end game content.... or if balancing is just that much a nightmare fuck it make rez a role action with 1 charge and a 2 minute cooldown, black mage mains wont benefit that much cuz I guarantee they won't use it if their life depends on it.

B): I like the idea of removing Jolt II from the rotation entirely and replacing it with just verfire and verstone, it ironically makes the job more interesting that way. I would be totally for it.

C): I know that people in the comments are disagreeing with changing the rotation timer slightly so that skills like fleche and contre sixte always line up with your casts, but I disagree with not at least reviewing why that exists. My main reason for drifting both OGCDs is that I notice both are coming off cooldown in 2-3 seconds, I know that my regular cast of verfire or stone will drift the OGCD by like a second cuz I have to dualcast thunder or aero to not drift anyways so I want to use acceleration but OOPS both verfire and verstone are procced and now I have to waste part of acceleration just keep my OGCDs from drifting. It may not seem like much but it really sucks knowing that part of your kit gets essentially wasted just because you got "lucky" with your procs and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think any other job has a similar issue. I think that adding a trait to acceleration that states using verthunder or veraero while verfire or verstone is still procced will increase the damage of thunder or aero by whatever potency it needs will fix that shitty feeling. Or just give fleche or contre sixte charges, it shocks me that they didn't already do that.

1/2

[Rychu]

D): I personally think that if the game is going to continue with the 2 minute meta then jobs need to have something very exciting and different from their usual rotation. Enshroud is the perfect example of something different to spice up the filler rotations, but I think Warrior's Inner Release and the reworked Paladin's confiteor skills also fit into that window pretty well. The sword combo into big magic booms just aren't that exciting really. The melee combo was neat for a caster to have a melee phase but now SMN also has melee skills and the big magic booms kinda fizzle out when rng can make your verflare/verholy and scorch do massive 70-90k damage with crits and then resolution does like 35k cuz you got unlucky. I really enjoy the idea of the chainspell into verultima as our 2 minute burst. Of course your version sounds super broken and not balanced but conceptually I absolutely adore it.

E):Self Mitigation is honest to god the worst fucking feeling when playing red mage. I switched to SMN this raid tier just because I got so tired of dying to raidwides that I would have survived if I was smn or black mage. This is the one part of the job that assures me that the developers don't test everything because holy shit I can be at 90% plus with a bunch of savage gear and still die because the health pool is so hilariously low. Making a role action shield for all casters is completely reasonable solution and I hope they take that idea from you. Change magick barrier to your suggestion as well while they are at it, harrowing hell sucks majorly for rdm because magick barrier only mitigates magic.

F): I had never considered the black and white pledge proposal you suggested. I am honestly all for it, if the developers fully shift RDM to be the Dancer of casters. I disagree on the player not being able to choose who pledge goes onto during combat and letting the game decide that automatically if someone dies but that is a minor nitpick. This would be really cool and add flavor to red mage.

Man that was a lot, the rest of E_U's suggestions I either agree with and have not much to say or add or was indifferent to begin with on the issue.I would love if at least some of your proposed ideas make it into the game! If even the minor ones.

2/2

[Mithron]

1. Rework combat so Haste is a direct DPS gain for all jobs
2. Give RDM Hasteaga on top of Embolden