Dragon Sight change - Just remove positionals already

[Aco505]

Perhaps that's why it'd do nothing... for them: they don't, and don't care to.

So opting out of gameplay and there being no gameplay are identical... for them. >.>

Even if positionals disappeared, nothing guarantees that we'd get something else in return for melee jobs, and considering how simpler and simpler combat has become... it baffles me that people ask for the removal of things. An easy example is found with SMN and caster players being annoyed because the job barely casts...

Just fully hoping the devs try to raise the skill ceiling of jobs in 7.0 in some way.

[Ransu]

Even if positionals disappeared, nothing guarantees that we'd get something else in return for melee jobs, and considering how simpler and simpler combat has become... it baffles me that people ask for the removal of things. An easy example is found with SMN and caster players being annoyed because the job barely casts...

Just fully hoping the devs try to raise the skill ceiling of jobs in 7.0 in some way.

I don't care if they stay or go. I just don't see any value to them. I'm more concerned about maintaining my rotation windows and doing the mechanics. Sliding to the side and back and occasionally pressing true north when needed is just really not all the compelling or engaging to me. I personally do not understand what there is to like about something that does absolutely nothing for the combat. If flank positionals actually required you to move all the way to the side you'd maybe have an argument, but you only need to be on the very edge of the circle and then take literally one step back over to get back to the rear. The "engagement" of positionals is literally zero. There's no real punishment for missing them anymore and they are just overall completely pointless.

[Aco505]

I don't care if they stay or go.

You seem to care quite a lot considering how much you show up in these threads about positionals arguing about how useless they are for you.

Sliding to the side and back and occasionally pressing true north when needed is just really not all the compelling or engaging to me.

You and anyone saying this have been asked several times to show proof of how easy it is to move a centimeter to the left or right in fights where you actually have to work for them (e. g. TOP, P11S, P12S, EX6, etc.), yet you never did. You know very well that they are not that simple when it comes to hitting them all in fights where they are more demanding.

Whether they should be more rewarding or not or if there should be more fights challenging melee is an entirely different issue.

I'm more concerned about maintaining my rotation windows and doing the mechanic

And positionals add an extra layer of optimization as you learn a new fight and get used to the mechanics. Hopefully you will finally understand this before coming back to say how useless they are.

The point is that if you remove them, you gain absolutely nothing in return and instead melee jobs become more boring (you will just never move outside of mechanics), unless for some reason SE made our rotations way more involved in 7.0 and/or provided us with more interesting uptime options.

Since history and experience say that they tend not to compensate for what it's taken, this is one of the main reasons why there's so many people against removing positionals.

[Ransu]

And positionals add an extra layer of optimization as you learn a new fight and get used to the mechanics.

They literally don't.

[ZiraZ]

They literally don't.

Post a video of you trying to hitting them all in P11S, lets see if it doesn't add a layer of hilarity
or you may just do your usual exit strategy and stop replying like you always do when asked something you can't provide, refute or prove, just to then try again 2 months later.

[Ransu]

Post a video of you trying to hitting them all in P11S, lets see if it doesn't add a layer of hilarity
or you may just do your usual exit strategy and stop replying like you always do when asked something you can't provide, refute or prove, just to then try again 2 months later.

No? You're free to post whatever video you want, but I have zero interest in doing so. I don't pug and I respect the privacy of my static. I also don't need to post a video to refute basic facts that positionals have zero meaning anymore.

[ZiraZ]

No? You're free to post whatever video you want, but I have zero interest in doing so. I don't pug and I respect the privacy of my static. I also don't need to post a video to refute basic facts that positionals have zero meaning anymore.

Guess it's not as simple as 1 pixel to the right and 1 pixel to the left then? Burden of proof is on you, and for someone that has said multiple times that you don't care either way if positionals are removed or if they stay, you sure do seem to actually want them removed even when not playing melee.

Kaiten didn't really take that much effort to optimize, but it was fun and engaging to do. Positionals? Meh. They just don't add any value to the game for me

Funny, that's the same argument the pro kaiten removal people used, just the other way around, I guess if you put it that way then positional and kaiten do deserve to be removed, what's next? Ley Lines? make it a buff like Presence of Mind! I don't see the value those pesky black mages gain by standing in a silly circle. I'm sure they will add something later in like 3 expansions down the line, pinky promise from SE.

[CelestiCer]

Post a video of you trying to hitting them all in P11S, lets see if it doesn't add a layer of hilarity

You can do a video comparison of

• a Melee moving a bit trying to hit positionals
• a Melee RPing as a BLM not trying
• a Melee jumping and running circles to meme it

For added comedic relief? have the Tank spin the boss 360° in the last PoV vid

" It adds Nothing, its useless " argument
Performance wise, Melee's get a few extra percent damage out of the ( supposedly tiny ) effort to execute something that top parsers even miss perform. Parties interested in that extra performance can have Tanks pull bosses in certain ways. It increases APM ever so slightly due to True North weaving and Moving. So it adding nothing or being useless is false, unless its subjectively based on personal Fun cause it otherwise adds clearly something and its purely optional as well.

" Job streamlining necessary for better mechanics " argument
Zero proof that Job streamlining i.e positional removal incl. was ever necessary to grant us better mechanics and more in-depth fights as they never stood in the way of any fight design ever being created. Encouraging more of it only makes everything not high-end more boring as most interesting mechanics are locked behind that difficulty. Unless anyone wants to convince me I had to lose my " Kaiten " for another lightparty - partner stack mechanic or another generic half room cleave in nearly every darn part of EW. It makes this argument point not very convincing...

" Replace it with something better " argument
When was the last time SE removed x and replaced it with something better? Seigan? SMN rework? NIN mug? 2 min meta? Giant boxes? Even if they removed x they rarely immediately replace it with something more in-depth/thoughtful/less mindless/complex/engaging etc it's going to take x patches or even years. It's an empty promise. Look they removed my Kaiten... didn't get anything in return. Look they simplified jobs what did we get? Giant hitboxes and an Ultimate that can be cleared without requiring healers... Speculating what they coulda done is not anywhere close to what they will do. Removing positionals isn't automatically going to be met with something more thoughtful in return.

This endless pursuit to want to streamline everything... like why are we surprised that Jobs are becoming dumber by the request to optimally simplify everything? To the point Job gameplay is so bland? you could season it with dust and it would have more flavor to it...

[Eorzean_username]

They literally don't.

I agree that the gameplay value of positionals — as currently designed — to the "average" player's game experience, at this point in FFXIV, is probably being overexaggerated.

However, I am perplexed by the assertion that this statement:

[...] positionals add an extra layer of optimization as you learn a new fight and get used to the mechanics.

...can be "literally" false?

• It adds potency

• It can be failed

• Not missing a single one usually requires planning and anticipation

It seems to me that, by conceptual definition, attempting to strike every positional on a complex or fast-moving encounter is, literally, a part of the optimisation process.

There's a massive can-of-worms to get into about whether it's a good optimisation process, but it's definitely there — just like a Caster striving not to drop a single cast, a Machinist striving not to be out of range for heals, and etc.

[Ransu]

I agree that the gameplay value of positionals — as currently designed — to the "average" player's game experience, at this point in FFXIV, is probably being overexaggerated.

However, I am perplexed by the assertion that this statement:

...can be "literally" false?

• It adds potency

• It can be failed

• Not missing a single one usually requires planning and anticipation

It seems to me that, by conceptual definition, attempting to strike every positional on a complex or fast-moving encounter is, literally, a part of the optimisation process.

There's a massive can-of-worms to get into about whether it's a good optimisation process, but it's definitely there — just like a Caster striving not to drop a single cast, a Machinist striving not to be out of range for heals, and etc.

The raids are not exactly random with their mechanics. Some minor scenarios are different here and there based on individual responsibilities, but in the grand scheme of things savage raids are literally a dance and your rotation will be the exact same at every mechanic every single time. I literally memorize mechanics based on where I am in my rotation lol. Once you have that dance memorized, knowing when and where true north is a waste or not becomes pretty easy. Can you miss 1 or 2 in a fight? Sure. Does it matter? Not really.

Even when positionals actually had meaning and proc things like heavy thrust or changed how much kenki you gained instead of being a potency difference I just never really felt positionals were all that engaging. Kaiten didn't really take that much effort to optimize, but it was fun and engaging to do. Positionals? Meh. They just don't add any value to the game for me, especially now with so many oGCD's making combat seem much faster than it really is I find less value in positionals. Back in ARR they were kinda neat because they filled the gap of an otherwise excruciatingly slow and boring combat and even then the abundance of positionals on MNK wasn't really enough to keep me from being bored. I didn't really fully appreciate the combat till HW with DRG and by that point the combat was busy enough for DRG that I felt the filler of positionals to make the slow combat feel more engaging had lost is merit and the devs have clearly felt that to as they made them less and less impactful. I just don't see the point of them anymore and I definitely don't see the need to add something in place of them since they add zero value to the combat engagement to begin with.