TOP cleared with no healers

[Araxes]

I'm just baffled that this is possible... The performance was amazing to see and both sad at the same time as Healers are " obsolete " in the hardest content... Not every group of players can do this either... it's just that it never should have been possible in the first place. It highlights flaws in what Square has designed.

RIP Healer self esteem :/

[ForsakenRoe]

Found myself having a good (?) time healing in Barbarian Assault to get a fighter torso in OSRS recently (couple of days before the patch). for context, you can only heal your allies by using a vial from your inventory on them, it only heals for 10 HP (i was at level 1, you can upgrade it by 5 per rank of the role, up to a max of 25hp per dose), the enemy boss can hit EVERYONE for up to 12 with AOE attacks, the game works on 0.6 second 'ticks' so you can't heal anyone faster than one per 0.6s (the GCD as it were), and the vial can only hold 4 charges before you have to refill it at a pool to the south of the arena.

Also everyone's running about doing stuff to prep the ultimate ammo for the cannon, the only way to kill the queen. You could beg the team to stay near the pool, but you're fighting a battle of attrition at that point, as the team has to leave at some point to get their part of the Omega Egg prep done. It was hectic, and fun in its own way. So if the suggestion from certain people is that healing should be 'so chaotic and stressful that you are forced to drop almost all of your damage to keep people alive', I've experienced it there. And I can assure that casual players are not going to keep up with that. Lots of groups run 2 healers if their group isn't well geared (ie rune platebody, sub-60hp players looking to get a torso and dip, etc)

Despite this oppressive amount of damage to heal through (on EU>NA ping mind you), I as the healer STILL had to do damage to enemies. As the healer, your job is not just to keep people alive, but also to hear the callout from the Defender, and use specific poisoned food on the enemy healers. Sad, isn't it, that people are arguing that 'healers should only heal' when Runescape had this cracked back in 2007

[IkaraGreydancer]

I see this and...I don't care. This doesn't prove any sort of point. Same for when folks were clearing Pandemonium stuff with all Tanks. That doesn't just means apparently Healers and dps aren't needed.

The moment they gut tanks to make healers more prominent like folks are asking most will complain anyways

[R041]

I see this and...I don't care. This doesn't prove any sort of point. Same for when folks were clearing Pandemonium stuff with all Tanks. That doesn't just means apparently Healers and dps aren't needed.

The moment they gut tanks to make healers more prominent like folks are asking most will complain anyways

I think you missed the point. Ultimate isn't Savage, and the suggestion was to do Ultimate if players were unsatisfied with Healer role engagement in Savage.

You don't have to care, I don't really care either. I don't do either of these, so I don't have a say at all anyway. But I understand why they would care, especially when it's clear Yoshi doesn't seem to know what he's talking about, and it shows that he's out of touch with the engagement and maybe the raid scene as a whole. Not even mentioning the overall tuning..

So the tone now kinda comes off similarly to.. dO yOu GuYs NoT hAvE pHoNeS?

But, I don't do any of this content. I'm a parrot. lol

[Hyperia]

I'm just baffled that this is possible... The performance was amazing to see and both sad at the same time as Healers are " obsolete " in the hardest content... Not every group of players can do this either... it's just that it never should have been possible in the first place. It highlights flaws in what Square has designed.

This only happened because self-healing and self-sustain is way too high, in some cases excessive.

[DayHealer]

- Nerf warrior.

- Add more unavoidable damage.

Is too hard to do SE?

[thevanguard]

I think you missed the point. Ultimate isn't Savage, and the suggestion was to do Ultimate if players were unsatisfied with Healer role engagement in Savage.

You don't have to care, I don't really care either. I don't do either of these, so I don't have a say at all anyway. But I understand why they would care, especially when it's clear Yoshi doesn't seem to know what he's talking about, and it shows that he's out of touch with the engagement and maybe the raid scene as a whole. Not even mentioning the overall tuning..

So the tone now kinda comes off similarly to.. dO yOu GuYs NoT hAvE pHoNeS?

But, I don't do any of this content. I'm a parrot. lol

Honestly at this point it doesn't seem like they're out of touch but more like they just flat out don't care.

[Jojoya]

- Nerf warrior.

- Add more unavoidable damage.

Is too hard to do SE?

In the TOP example, I think the PLDs were more of a problem than the WAR.

If it was the party healing/mitigation utility in non-healer roles that made the TOP clear possible, then removing that utility from the non-healer roles should be the first step. Keep the 90/120s party wide actions. Keep self-healing (though tone it down in tanks where needed). If any of the removed utility is considered needed for raiding, add it to the healers instead.

Once the impact of removing the utility can be assessed, SE will have a better idea whether more unavoidable damage is needed. They're still going to have the task of trying to balance it so less skilled healers don't feel overwhelmed compared to the top 5%. The best of the best is still likely to feel the changes underwhelming unless SE moves design away from the standard TTHHDDD comp to one where most parties may decide they want 3 healers instead of 2. That would likely mean fewer tight DPS checks and I'm not certain how the community would react to that.

[ForsakenRoe]

If SE made a fight where 3 healers was even remotely an option for 'we can still meet the enrage, and it'll be safer cos more healing', it'd be decried by DPS players for being an abomination of design, 'why is the enrage so lax', 'they took our jerbs' memes, etc. And SE would immediately change course, hotfix the fight to conform to the standard 2/2/4, because DPS are the golden children of the game and we cannot do wrong by them. Solo/Zero-Healer runs of things, that's fine though, nothing wrong here.

Besides that, if the goal is 'increase party damage output with whatever means possible', surely the players would opt to go 2/2/4 in the suggestion anyway, and then just complain that the healers they have are too bad at actually healing to keep up? I doubt many parties would think 'you know what, lets drop a DPS and bring a 3rd healer' because of the inherent DPS loss of doing so

[Raikai]

Idk, isn't a TOP clear with no healers something really achievable by a tiny portion of the already small portion of groups who do Ultimates? If so, I don't think it should really be a design concern.

But if it really is an issue, then they'd have to change fundamental things about encounter design, such as damage profiles and healer playstyle, and that's unlikely (although I'd love to be wrong).