Meaningless Battles...

[SannaR]

Only in JRPGs. I've always thought if you can't win the fight they might as well make it a cutscene.

Doesn't God of War Ragnarok also start with a fight you're not meant to win? I'm sure there many other non JRPGs that have fights you're just supposed to loose or stay alive until X.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Tales of Destiny does it right. At one point you do a 4 v 1 fight and the kid is just decimating your group. You can kinda brute force it with a lot of healing items and what not and might get lucky if you did a ton of early story grinding. If not...he beats you into paste. HOWEVER if you beat him...game is over. You don't get thrown into prison that sets you up for the rest of your adventure. You win. You become successful lens hunters and that's it.

I cant believe somebody even mentions Tales of Destiny. Too bad that fight becomes unwinnable in the ps2 remake though lol.

Anyway, I think people forget the purpose of unwinnable fights for its interactive element. Too many get caught up in the logistics. However there's ways to make those unwinnable fights be designed well. For starters they could just annex the the boss's HP so that it's not so blatant in your face that youre killing them.

[Dorito_Burrito]

If you want a game that makes you "win to lose", play Dragon Ball Z: Budokai Tenkaichi 2. You're expected to win fights in story mode that are canonically losses in the anime/manga, so you can absolutely trounce your opponent only for the narrator to tell you in the next cutscene that your character lost to some degree.

[Absurdity]

Elden Ring even begins with one.

It actually doesn't, you can kill the Grafted Scion at the start.

[Renalt]

I cant believe somebody even mentions Tales of Destiny. Too bad that fight becomes unwinnable in the ps2 remake though lol.

Anyway, I think people forget the purpose of unwinnable fights for its interactive element. Too many get caught up in the logistics. However there's ways to make those unwinnable fights be designed well. For starters they could just annex the the boss's HP so that it's not so blatant in your face that youre killing them.

I think the issue is HOW the unwinnable battle is presented and not the fact it exists. I wanna say Xenoblade Chronicles 2 does it several times where you are just absolutely SPANKING the enemy. I mean just straight up handing them their sorry butts and the cutscene plays out where they just immediately hand wave you away like you were a fly the entire time.

Um. No. I was beating the crap out if you. Your bar was zero and you barely touched me. The cutscene should reflect that.

If they want it done right...the boss needs to be fast, your attacks do negligible damage and they hit you and you are practically half dead.

Now the cutscene makes sense. You really were a joke to them and that's how it played out in combat.

Also yeah ToD is on my top 10. PS1 was golden age of a lot of JRPGs.

[Jeeqbit]

Scripted fights that force you to lose, and serious boss battles where winning means nothing. Winning the battle, and losing in the cut scene is a favourite trope of Square Enix and I'm kind of over it?

If we won all the time then people would come up with the criticism that we always win. To the point people were happy about not winning in Stormblood.

Like, give the villian a back up plan, make something else happen. Make my win feel like it mattered.

Quit letting villian's shake off asskickings.

This last sentence contradicts with the first. Often the backup plan is transforming into something else or using a different type of magic during the battle, or gradually doing multiple mechanics together when it did them alone at the start. Often the backup plan is that ultimate attack where there is a DPS check.

Most recent update, the cut scene made that whole fight mean nothing, and I felt as if the work I put into winning was for nothing.

Has it occurred to you that there is no death in the 13th? As in, it's not possible to defeat Golbez without first taking him to the source.

[Hayden]

This was a big issue I had with the latest extreme. Actually pissed me off a bit, it was so frustrating. Though I do have the stance of "if you have to force the protagonist to sit there and listen to the villain monologue/let the villain enact their master plan and the protagonist just sits there and lets it happen, your writing might not be very good". I don't appreciate forced idiocy/ineptitude for my character. It's not very hard to have SOMETHING happen that prevents the protagonist from not being fully capable of stopping you and just not doing it because we gotta let the narrative happen!

All of this and more.

Like, I get it...we have to have a big show down with Big Bad, so he can reveal he really isn't the Big Bad but just you wait while he calls BIG BAD.

You said it perfectly, I'm tired of losing the fight because the Narrative says I need to lose. Don't just make the big bad recover instantly, laugh at us, claim this was his plan all along, then boot us out with a "force field boss is too strong" Like, let me enjoy my victory a little. Put a few cut scenes between our win and his push back. Maybe think up another way to pull it off other than "lose in the scene" I'm so damn tired of FFXIV losing in the cut scene after winning in the battle.

I think the issue is HOW the unwinnable battle is presented and not the fact it exists. I wanna say Xenoblade Chronicles 2 does it several times where you are just absolutely SPANKING the enemy. I mean just straight up handing them their sorry butts and the cutscene plays out where they just immediately hand wave you away like you were a fly the entire time.

Um. No. I was beating the crap out if you. Your bar was zero and you barely touched me. The cutscene should reflect that.

If they want it done right...the boss needs to be fast, your attacks do negligible damage and they hit you and you are practically half dead.

Now the cutscene makes sense. You really were a joke to them and that's how it played out in combat.

Also yeah ToD is on my top 10. PS1 was golden age of a lot of JRPGs.

Yup. This is how I felt with the most recent trial. It wasn't even close...we kicked his ass. It was a fun fight and we won. Don't just do the goddamn "kneel for a few seconds then stand up, laugh, bind us(not even this time, we just sat there picking out noses mostly) then do the thing you were gonna do if we hadn't even been there.

I dunknow...you lost...now you have to do a last ditched back up plan? Retreat and try again....anything....


lazy.

[Hayden]

I just pretend like my WoL does everything by themselves unless it has trusts. Makes me feel cooler.

I actually also hate scripted loss fights unless its in the context of the enemy getting away or some intervening force. I didn't like that I lost to Zenos in Stormblood. I thought it was stupid. I would have rather it be a draw. I also thought losing to Golbez was dumb.

THATS the thing though, we didn't lose to Golbez, we kicked his ass. Just the Narriative needed him to win so...*shrug*

[Banriikku]

What here is the problem is the HOW. A loosing battle can mean something, no problem. But Golbertz is just nope "Shake it off" + "Blood Whetting" and thats the problem. We handed him his Kupo Nuts and he just "Nah... dont think so". Make the fight in a way where you feel the pressure and stakes that, you the hero, are here to fight for the escape not the win. Narrative absolute an banger if pulled corecctly but SE does these "Oh you win ? Nah... the Boss dont want to" and thats the problem. The battle and follow scence does not match. Better writing is what is needed and funnly enough SE pulled this in other games a lot without a problem and even in FF14.

[Shinkuno]

Tales of Destiny does it right. At one point you do a 4 v 1 fight and the kid is just decimating your group. You can kinda brute force it with a lot of healing items and what not and might get lucky if you did a ton of early story grinding. If not...he beats you into paste. HOWEVER if you beat him...game is over. You don't get thrown into prison that sets you up for the rest of your adventure. You win. You become successful lens hunters and that's it.

I think DMC5 does the same thing if you beat Urizen right at the start