Linear, linear, linear

[Payadopa]

And what did the player base decide about those dungeons? Since the rewards and bosses would be the same regardless of what order you did them in, the player base decided that the 3214 order was the most efficient route so every group would automatically go 3214. The occasional random player who wanted to go 1324 would get left for dead at best if they didn't rejoin the rest of the group or kicked out of the group at worst.

At that point, the dungeon might as well be linear when groups are going to follow the same route every time regardless. There's nothing gained (or lost) by going a different route outside of an extra minute of time.

Variant has a nice concept that's the start to making multi-path dungeons interesting but there's still a lot of room for improvement. Imagine alternate paths that lead to altars that grant a group buffs, with those buffs granting different benefits to the group at the same time they subtly alter boss mechanics (as we see in the current Variant based on route choice or interaction with various objects). Groups would could choose their route depending on which buff would be most beneficial to the group comp's strengths and weaknesses since the Variant actions make the usual T-H-D-D comp unnecessary. Or perhaps route choice would change what the boss loot drops are. Defeating optional bosses could make the final boss harder with better rewards or weaker with lesser rewards.

There's no point in making multi-path dungeons if the choice of route doesn't have the potential to impact the overall experience in some meaningful way.

So the logic is because it'll get eventually boring don't try to change that and make it boring from the beginning.

Why have interesting abilities when someone will do the math and figure out the exact best rotation. Why figure out a boss fight yourself when you can watch a YT video.

The answer is always the same. Because some people enjoy it and play for fun.

[Shinkuno]

So the logic is because it'll get eventually boring don't try to change that and make it boring from the beginning.

Why have interesting abilities when someone will do the math and figure out the exact best rotation. Why figure out a boss fight yourself when you can watch a YT video.

The answer is always the same. Because some people enjoy it and play for fun.

The people that argue "but someone will figure out the best path!" are strangely often the ones pressing random buttons instead of the objectively mathed out best rotation *think emoji* They can freestyle their own "rotation" but somehow a multiple path dungeon is bad

[Jojoya]

So the logic is because it'll get eventually boring don't try to change that and make it boring from the beginning.

Why have interesting abilities when someone will do the math and figure out the exact best rotation. Why figure out a boss fight yourself when you can watch a YT video.

The answer is always the same. Because some people enjoy it and play for fun.

Oh, I would love to have some serious choices when it comes to picking what abilities my character has available. Some of the best fun I had in WoW was playing my dorky bank alt mage in the open world with a really crazy set of talents back in Wrath. Couldn't deviate from the acceptable talent builds for my raiding characters but since my bank alt didn't raid and rarely did normal dungeons, I could get away with anything I wanted.

But I know why choice gets sacrificed - most players demand balance and the more variables involved, the harder it is to achieve that balance. The devs already have to try to find a balance for 19 jobs that the player base will consider acceptable. Now imagine if each of those 19 jobs had a dozen different builds available that also required balancing.

It would be great if SE simply told players "We've devoted a decade of job design to those of you who want jobs to be balanced. Now we're going to devote the next decade to those who want job customization and unique actions." I've been around MMOs long enough to know I'd rather have someone who knows what they're doing with their underperforming job in my party than someone who playing the current FotM but can barely get a base combo done and constantly has to be scraped off the floor. I'm a lot more likely to get the clear with the former.

The interests of players like you and me unfortunately get overshadowed by the vocal optimization crowd that will only choose their party comp based on numbers generated by players they'll never play with instead of including/excluding players based on their personal merit. I bet those who work on job design would likewise love the chance to incorporate some original ideas into jobs instead of having to worry about getting the job balanced compared to the others.

There are always the single player RPGs for creating fun builds. No need to worry about balance because aren't competing against others for a raid spot. If someone manages to come up with a ridiculously OP build, they don't have to worry about it getting nerfed into the ground.

The people that argue "but someone will figure out the best path!" are strangely often the ones pressing random buttons instead of the objectively mathed out best rotation *think emoji* They can freestyle their own "rotation" but somehow a multiple path dungeon is bad

Again, dungeons end up linear because of players. Players are the ones who want to get in and out of dungeons as fast as possible. Multiple paths are meaningless if the player base decides on a most efficient route and sticks to using it every time. There's no point in creating multiple paths if players aren't going to deviate from the optimal route. It's just a waste of developer time that could be spent on other projects.

Developers are usually more than happy to get the opportunity to flex their creative skills. It's the budget allocation given to a project that holds those opportunities in check.

Variant was a nice step toward creating meaningful multiple path dungeons but they still need a lot of work before they'll get there.

[Shinkuno]

Again, dungeons end up linear because of players. Players are the ones who want to get in and out of dungeons as fast as possible. Multiple paths are meaningless if the player base decides on a most efficient route and sticks to using it every time. There's no point in creating multiple paths if players aren't going to deviate from the optimal route. It's just a waste of developer time that could be spent on other projects.

Developers are usually more than happy to get the opportunity to flex their creative skills. It's the budget allocation given to a project that holds those opportunities in check.

Variant was a nice step toward creating meaningful multiple path dungeons but they still need a lot of work before they'll get there.

So why arent rotations 1 button yet that automatically cycle through the objectively best rotation? No, they design linear dungeons because its easy and cost-effective. Maybe other devs like the flex, square definitely doesnt. Stop excusing their lazyness with "but its the players fault "

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

So why arent rotations 1 button yet that automatically cycle through the objectively best rotation? No, they design linear dungeons because its easy and cost-effective. Maybe other devs like the flex, square definitely doesnt. Stop excusing their lazyness with "but its the players fault "

Uh... someone managed to make a working 1 button rotation macro for SMN.

Jobs are already slowly approaching to that point.