Crystalline Conflict Tier List (with deep maths!)

[RajNish]

I'm just wondering if anyone takes into account here how Wildfire works in a crowd?

[opaltatcoeurl]

I like the concept here but I think for a lot of jobs you don't seem to actually understand how they work on any level whatsoever, or their relative strengths in comparison to other jobs. You also seemingly didn't take into consideration party utility like BRD LB which is very strange to say the least. Also, saying it's "mathematical" is pretty goofy.

Anyway, here are some examples of things you got fundamentally wrong:
-WHM has the only undispellable CC in the game, as well as a powerful and fast-charging stun in a massive AoE. Saying AST has stronger CC is pretty funny.
-Your ratings of single target burst and aoe burst are pretty funny overall, as a BRD main surely you would know that it's one of the strongest single target bursts in the game and forces a guard or purify to live most of the time.
-Saying RDM has poor mobility is also pretty wrong, you put it in the same tier as WAR which is just goofy.

Again, I love the idea of rating jobs on vectors like this but a lot of the information presented is just incredibly wrong.

[Aisi]

Thank you for the work you do in the community, and thank you for not coming here for the sole purpose of dunking on me.

I have been avoiding ad hominem this entire time and have only been focusing on the mathematical quantifiers of every job I find in the graphs. I have ignored the tier list because it is fundamentally subjective and you are free to believe what you want to believe about the state of every job.

As far as I can tell, our disagreements stem from the following points.

1. Calculations are based almost purely on tooltip numbers, against a striking dummy. Guard and Recuperate are off the table for many calculations. It is fine if you want to present striking dummy benchmarks as a frame of reference for damage ceilings, but it will not be accurate of real gameplay, which is why I disagree so heavily with using it as the basis of your graphs.

2. Calculations assign arbitrary value to or hand wave unquantifiable metrics. For the sake of simplifying calculations, this is very reasonable. But this means your graphs are also, ultimately, subject to how you've assigned arbitrary value, and throws a lot of nuance out the window for the sake of creating the graph. For example, your claim is that 1 untargeted dash is the same amount of mobility as 4 targeted enemy dashes. We can agree to disagree, but if you have 4 dashes to run down a given enemy, versus 1 dash - this nuance is lost.

But I wanted a way to quantify the very clear gaps in capability between the jobs in CC, so my good friend and I have spent the past week laboring to build a tier list that's as objective as possible.

Keep in mind that no methodology will ever be perfect, and there will always be cases in which a job will look one way on paper and perform another way in practice. It is 100% ok to use the eye test and personal experience to compare, contrast, and temper what you see here on this list.

Fundamentally, I believe the effort you put into making the list comes from a good place. But these are very contradictory statements - and the way you've framed this thread is as an end-all-be-all mathematical tier list, yet it may not be reflective of actual gameplay effectiveness?

I am sorry if I have come off as rude or demeaning in my comments, but I have tried to keep my statements as focused as possible in explaining the shortcomings of this methodology that you've chosen.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

BRD burst is one of the best burst in the game because it is nearly instant, hard to react to the silence, requires almost no setup, is ranged, has a 20s cooldown, inherently has damage amps tied to it, and to top it all off the only conditional requirement is that you hold at least two empyreal arrows. BRD is valued as a job for it's damage amp, it's ability to save teammates with Wardens, it's oppressive burst, and the ability to cheat the LB economy. Combined with the fact that repelling shot makes the job extremely slippery against melees - the job is fantastic. To claim that it's not good purely because of numbers on the tooltip and not properly accounting for metrics like LB generation, average availability, team damage amps is also disingenuous.

I do agree with you on that damage isn't linearly valuable--that's something that we should've factored into the grading curve. RDM and GNB should probably also be retooled to consider Junctions and Shifts separately, as opposed to averaging. Implementing controls for RPR stacks is also valid, though again I will say that I wasn't responsible for crunching RPR numbers. Thank you for actually engaging in discussion and providing real feedback.

I would disagree on Repelling Shot making BRD "extremely slippery" though LOL when many melees have a charge-based dash that can also no longer be outranged by Nocturne. The bind is also single target, so all it takes is a pair of dedicated dive buddies. Availability calculations for damage and healing are theoretically possible? But they get out of control really fast with a lot jobs. The functioning theory was that the overall score of each job would be internally balanced by its strengths and weaknesses in different areas. If you'd like to work together to rehaul the system I'd love to though! I'd like to at least make an effort, as opposed to making abstract value judgments when we don't even know things like exactly how much LB charge BRD provides.

[Guntank81]

This u?

Yes, but what does that have to do with anything, though? I tend to play more casual matches than ranked ones because I have limited time. In Season 1, I made a mistake by switching from Behemoth to Mateus, and I ended up losing my Platinum rank just two weeks before it ended. Besides, you seem to be focusing only on one criticism of what the original poster said, even though they already admitted their mistake. Apart from that, the tier list is pretty accurate, like most tier lists are. However, since it's subjective, different people will have different opinions based on their personal biases and experiences. So, we shouldn't just dismiss this tier list outright. I appreciate the constructive criticism you provided to the original poster, though, we should have more tierlist like this to gauge the community feelings towards a job, to get the feel what feels strong. Admittedly I feel all jobs can perform well

[opaltatcoeurl]

Ok I've read more of the thread and LMFAOOOO

ok so first of all: a lot of the game doesnt come down to just numbers, there are so many small things that numerically may not be significant but change the game. Sure, WHM poly is very short so mathematically it may not seem strong but have you played a single game of CC against a decent WHM? How do you calculate the impact of forcing a purify for jobs like BRD and WHM where if you don't purify you're probably just dead?

Also: saying EA is only a recoup is very true! However, it's 12000 alongside a silence, a 5% damage boost, and 16,000 in GCD damage. Pretty much anyone below 80% HP falls over if they don't immediately purify or pre-guard. Also, because you don't even try to quantify the impact of party utility like LB and paean you have an incredibly distorted view of the job. I'm not gonna pretend to know how you play because I've never seen it but if you think Bard's burst is weak you either are playing it wrong or genuinely have learned nothing from playing the game. (Also, saying DRG do more burst with "just 3 buttons" is pretty silly considering they too press literally everything and the kitchen sink to burst properly.)

When you have this many T30/T10 players and actual top LP players trying to explain that your list is very poorly put together, maybe try to listen to them and learn instead of acting like you know better because you added two numbers together with no perspective on what those numbers actually mean.

[IllidanFang]

The fact youre making a tier list for 5 button pvp. like why? pick your fav job and queue up. youre putting math into a mode literally designed for accessibility and casuals. it aint that deep. didnt see this energy back in old pvp but i digress. i didnt even finish the post moment i saw Ninja above whm in tier i knew you was smoking nut.

pvp community is actually cooked

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

Again, I love the idea of rating jobs on vectors like this but a lot of the information presented is just incredibly wrong.

-WHM is not the only uncleansable CC if you count MNK/DNC/RPR LB. AST has overall more crowd control more often if they prioritize it, though it does hurt their healing capacity. I've already counted MoN on a double value anyway, so.
-You can add up BRD potencies yourself if you don't believe me. DRG can almost match BRD's entire burst just by pressing Wyrmwind + Nastrond (on <50%). Full stack Empyreal is significantly less than a Recuperate. Full range PP is one of the weakest burst-type buttons in the game, not even breaking 10k potency. 1+1+1 doesn't =5. If a BRD's burst feels impactful, it's because they're placing it correctly and not just blindly relying on value.
-WAR mobility is nothing to sneeze at. RDM values have been addressed in this thread already. It's not rated as "strictly poor", but relative to the options that some other jobs have, it is indeed relatively not as good.

When you have this many T30/T10 players and actual top LP players trying to explain that your list is very poorly put together, maybe try to listen to them and learn instead of acting like you know better because you added two numbers together with no perspective on what those numbers actually mean.

I understand that DRG will be pressing more buttons, but that's not the point. The point is that a DRG can match value even if they DON'T press fully optimal buttons. There is no universe where you can make the argument that the two are in contention for best STB.

The value of Paean was accounted for by awarding BRD its free point in the DEF category; BRD has no other defensive offerings, so it had nothing with which to score more highly. LB is a 10% damage buff, which WHM can provide twice as often (+healing amp + regen), and AST can triple in the short term. The LB battery effect isn't quantified anywhere in writing, so it's impossible to actually judge how valuable it is in cheating the LB economy. What's the magic bullet here? Creating a "Utility" score and giving BRD a 5?

If adding tooltips is so braindead and BRD burst is so insane, then why doesn't everyone just go pick up all these free kills with this crazy burst and overwhelming party value?

Fundamentally, I believe the effort you put into making the list comes from a good place. But these are very contradictory statements - and the way you've framed this thread is as an end-all-be-all mathematical tier list, yet it may not be reflective of actual gameplay effectiveness?

I am sorry if I have come off as rude or demeaning in my comments, but I have tried to keep my statements as rational as possible in explaining the shortcomings of this methodology that you've chosen.

Don't worry, it's not you! I've enjoyed your feedback a lot actually. As for the contradiction, I never intended for this to be "This Is The Only Tier List Ever", it was more of a math experiment--sorry if that never came across for everyone. That's why that contradictory caveat was placed there--for the MtG players among us, remember that can't always beats can: this system is making an ATTEMPT to quantify, but where it's cannot, it cannot. That's why that disclaimer is there.

[Aurafight]

I hate this post and everything about it

[Aendyr]

What RPR spec do I have to go into to unlock single target burst?