Crystalline Conflict Tier List (with deep maths!)

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

They're at CCRC finals, aka Ellie Meeps. Not many of the "god" players are playing this season, which is why you're able to climb so high rn. :skull: Throughout the entire thread you've made it abundantly clear you barely understand the mode you even play.

So all the good players of the best ranged job are just conveniently retired this season, while DRG and MNK and etc players have decided to keep playing for no particular reason huh.

Let's have a discussion on the points you think are so incorrect? Instead of a bunch of "you're wrong and your job is very good actually" with no further elaboration. "You do your burst wrong," when there are 4 damaging buttons with very clear usage conditions, without saying what the magical correct burst is.

It's not helpful to anyone if you just remain all cliquish with your viewpoint and only descend from your pantheon to ridicule. If I "barely understand the mode" then everyone I've passed or do well against must have a negative understanding or something, right? If the argument is that the job is strong in fully coordinated play, then I think anything can be strong with full coordination. Teamwork and comms go a long way. But on paper, there are numerical disadvantages that exist in the game, and pretending that there aren't solely on the grounds of personal exp/bias is a bit disingenuous, isn't it?

[MNKabuser]

So all the good players of the best ranged job are just conveniently retired this season, while DRG and MNK and etc players have decided to keep playing for no particular reason huh.

Let's have a discussion on the points you think are so incorrect? Instead of a bunch of "you're wrong and your job is very good actually" with no further elaboration. "You do your burst wrong," when there are 4 damaging buttons with very clear usage conditions, without saying what the magical correct burst is.

It's not helpful to anyone if you just remain all cliquish with your viewpoint and only descend from your pantheon to ridicule. If I "barely understand the mode" then everyone I've passed or do well against must have a negative understanding or something, right? If the argument is that the job is strong in fully coordinated play, then I think anything can be strong with full coordination. Teamwork and comms go a long way. But on paper, there are numerical disadvantages that exist in the game, and pretending that there aren't solely on the grounds of personal exp/bias is a bit disingenuous, isn't it?

Notice that I said "many" while you replied back with "all", that's because there is still some good players playing Ranked but hardly any compared to the previous seasons because they're all tired of the mode or busy with LP.
People also already told you about BRDs burst, and how you aren't doing it correctly, and some of the ones telling you that have been in games with you.
You've been carried to where you are on the board, because we've seen how you play just sitting in the back turreting on BRD not really doing much.

[MNKabuser]

As for LP, there is a reason certain jobs shine better in it, because there is Voice Comms, where people can actively relay more detailed info to eachother than quick chats.
So yes, a lot of jobs are going to do better in LP than Solo Q.

[Aisi]

But on paper, there are numerical disadvantages that exist in the game, and pretending that there aren't solely on the grounds of personal exp/bias is a bit disingenuous, isn't it?

BRD burst is one of the best burst in the game because it is nearly instant, hard to react to the silence, requires almost no setup, is ranged, has a 20s cooldown, inherently has damage amps tied to it, and to top it all off the only conditional requirement is that you hold at least two empyreal arrows. BRD is valued as a job for it's damage amp, it's ability to save teammates with Wardens, it's oppressive burst, and the ability to cheat the LB economy. Combined with the fact that repelling shot makes the job extremely slippery against melees - the job is fantastic. To claim that it's not good purely because of numbers on the tooltip and not properly accounting for metrics like LB generation, average availability, team damage amps is also disingenuous.

Again, according to your tier list, PLD has equivalent burst despite not accounting for the fact that Atonement has a full second of animation delay before the damage comes out and despite requiring the PLD to use Sheltron offensively and sacrificing at least 20k eHP.

Similarly, RPR's burst is calculated under the assumption that they will have 8 stacks of Plentiful Harvest at any given point. Because Plentiful Harvest has a 60s CD, the RPR can only naturally generate 4 stacks through Soul Slice (assuming 100% uptime), which implies that every minute, the RPR's team is getting 4 kills - aka wiping the enemy team.

It is good you calculated burst taking into account having LB and not having LB - but Plentiful Harvest is a 1 minute cooldown which is the same as some LBs. Without Plentiful (which will comprise more than 80% of average RPR gameplay), RPR's STB is so atrociously bad the STB variance is not well accounted for at all. On top of all of all these caveats of uptime and average case stacks, the cherry on top of these STB calculations is assuming that players will not guard or recuperate damage from taken stacking Death Warrant - a delayed nuke that takes 7s to go off.

Again, it is good to average cases of LB/no LB because you are accounting for resources, but this also operates under the assumption that the value of damage is linear - as an extreme example, 60k damage may be literally twice as much damage as 30k - but 60k damage one shots most jobs. The fact that it gets a kill means it's unquantifiably more valuable. So if you average those two numbers to get 45k - which is still a lot - you lose the nuance because 45k doesn't one shot anymore. 16k is a huge breakpoint in burst because it means the damage will require 1 extra recup to survive it. That's why averaging White Shift and Black Shift damage on RDM shouldn't be accounted for in STB - it doesn't account for how lethal Black Shift damage is in the correct situation. It's also why losing 4k damage on Pressure Points for MNK was actually a significant nerf - it pushed the Enlightenment Meteo OTK combo out of lethal range for solo kills, and reduced the consistency of killing targets without help from a teammate significantly.

[Myrha_Lhlalheva]

BRD burst is one of the best burst in the game because it is nearly instant, hard to react to the silence, requires almost no setup, is ranged, has a 20s cooldown, inherently has damage amps tied to it, and to top it all off the only conditional requirement is that you hold at least two empyreal arrows. BRD is valued as a job for it's damage amp, it's ability to save teammates with Wardens, it's oppressive burst, and the ability to cheat the LB economy. Combined with the fact that repelling shot makes the job extremely slippery against melees - the job is fantastic. To claim that it's not good purely because of numbers on the tooltip and not properly accounting for metrics like LB generation, average availability, team damage amps is also disingenuous.

I do agree with you on that damage isn't linearly valuable--that's something that we should've factored into the grading curve. RDM and GNB should probably also be retooled to consider Junctions and Shifts separately, as opposed to averaging. Implementing controls for RPR stacks is also valid, though again I will say that I wasn't responsible for crunching RPR numbers. Thank you for actually engaging in discussion and providing real feedback.

I would disagree on Repelling Shot making BRD "extremely slippery" though LOL when many melees have a charge-based dash that can also no longer be outranged by Nocturne. The bind is also single target, so all it takes is a pair of dedicated dive buddies. Availability calculations for damage and healing are theoretically possible? But they get out of control really fast with a lot jobs. The functioning theory was that the overall score of each job would be internally balanced by its strengths and weaknesses in different areas. If you'd like to work together to rehaul the system I'd love to though! I'd like to at least make an effort, as opposed to making abstract value judgments when we don't even know things like exactly how much LB charge BRD provides.