PSA: Do not undercut people by 50k gil or more

[Antharaes]

I mean undercutting is toxic

Where do you get that idea from ?? Undercutting is as normal as breathing. It's economy 101.

[NekoMataMata]

Where do you get that idea from ?? Undercutting is as normal as breathing. It's economy 101.

I just explained it to you. This is a game, not real life. It's normal to be competitive, but at the same time we all know how bad undercutting gets. It ends up being a competition of who has the most time to sit there at their retainers swapping the prices out repeatedly(or who can cheat and do it constantly).

Yes, it's not reportable but it's a toxic culture when it reaches a certain point.

[kaynide]

I just explained it to you. This is a game, not real life. It's normal to be competitive, but at the same time we all know how bad undercutting gets. It ends up being a competition of who has the most time to sit there at their retainers swapping the prices out repeatedly.

That’s kinda the point. Obviously not those who are botting, but that’s how a competitior wins. Person A is going to be willing to put in X amount of time, expecting Y profit/results.

Everyone has a different X:Y ratio; some people are more willing than others.

And again, nothing is stopping you from buying it at that fire sale and flipping for a profit, even if you have to wait a week for the price to rebound….unless it never rebounds in which case it really never was worth what you thought it was.

Again, (to OP)welcome to FF Stonks.

[NekoMataMata]

That’s kinda the point. Obviously not those who are botting, but that’s how a competitior wins. Person A is going to be willing to put in X amount of time, expecting Y profit/results.

Everyone has a different X:Y ratio; some people are more willing than others.

And again, nothing is stopping you from buying it at that fire sale and flipping for a profit, even if you have to wait a week for the price to rebound….unless it never rebounds in which case it really never was worth what you thought it was.

Again, welcome to FF Stonks.

What happened to respecting the player's time?

You don't have to have anything on this game or accomplish anything really, but when one part of the game becomes heavily gatekept by an enormous time investment like that, I don't think you could deny the toxicity of it.

People who are terminally online should not be allowed to set the standard for necessary play time to be successful. Yes, there are bots, but there's also people who spend every waking moment checking their retainers and dropping prices.

Part of the fun of many games is the competition, the drive to win. How fast can I beat this level or boss? if we use this strategy will we beat the other team? If I undercut, can I still be profitable and sell quickly? Marketboard competition is at most slightly irritating or rude, but nothing more. Undercutting isn't inherently toxic, it's just competitive.

I definitely get your point about bots, that I do find to be more toxic as they can just keep lowering it by single gil digits without any input and always put themselves at the top of the marketboard lists, but the undercutting isn't what's toxic, it's the automation of it. I wonder if it's possible to completely tank an items price (and hope no one buys it) to force the bot to undercut it, then just buy it off them for dirt cheap.

My point isn't entirely about bots. It also includes the terminally online.

Also, I want to ask you something. Can this be considered a true competition, when bots outstanding, half of your competitors or more are not present? Most people who aren't terminally online either don't have the time or don't want to bother checking their retainers every waking second. So in reality, the only people you compete against are bots or others who are also terminally online and doing the same thing. Your idea of a competition is to steamroll 90% the involved population. Would you say that's fair?

If you really have the competitive drive that you claim to have, why aren't you trying to compete elsewhere, like pvp?

[TheDustyOne]

My point isn't entirely about bots. It also includes the terminally online.

Also, I want to ask you something. Can this be considered a true competition, when bots outstanding, half of your competitors or more are not present? Most people who aren't terminally online either don't have the time or don't want to bother checking their retainers every waking second. So in reality, the only people you compete against are bots or others who are also terminally online and doing the same thing. Your idea of a competition is to steamroll 90% the involved population. Would you say that's fair?

If you really have the competitive drive that you claim to have, why aren't you trying to compete elsewhere, like pvp?

If someone really wants to compete in the market and make as much gil as they can by constantly crafting, gathering, and farming, why not? The marketboard is just as much part of the game as raiding, housing, or MSQ, if that's what they find satisfaction in, I don't mind. So long as that player doesn't resort to complete automation with botting software, then it's all fair game as far as I'm concerned and they take the competition more seriously than I do.

What do you mean by 'not present' when you already took bots out of the equation? If you mean that they're off doing something else while their retainer is selling something, so what? So long as what they set up is at a fair price, it'll eventually sell, no lifers or not, or at least this is what my experience with the marketboard has told me. If a particular item is taking forever to sell and it's always being undercut when I check it, chances are that item isn't popular enough to demand my attention and I'm better off just cutting my losses and selling cheap. I'm only checking my retainers a few times a day and I make enough money only casually using the marketboard, I'd hardly call myself a no-lifer in regards to selling.

Haven't touched PvP in a long time, maybe I should give Crystalline Conflict a go, but even still that's unrelated to the point I was making there. Competition is competition regardless of the form it takes, so long as people show good sportsmanship and don't resort to cheating, I don't care what tactics they use or how much time they spend, that's their business.

[Ranaku]

What happened to respecting the player's time?

The game respects your time, we the player don't. There is a difference between an open marketboard and the game itself.

[kaynide]

What happened to respecting the player's time? (1)

You don't have to have anything on this game or accomplish anything really, but when one part of the game becomes heavily gatekept by an enormous time investment like that, I don't think you could deny the toxicity of it.(2)

People who are terminally online should not be allowed to set the standard for necessary play time to be successful. (3)Yes, there are bots, but there's also people who spend every waking moment checking their retainers and dropping prices.



My point isn't entirely about bots. It also includes the terminally online.

Also, I want to ask you something. Can this be considered a true competition, when bots outstanding, half of your competitors or more are not present? Most people who aren't terminally online either don't have the time or don't want to bother checking their retainers every waking second. So in reality, the only people you compete against are bots or others who are also terminally online and doing the same thing. Your idea of a competition is to steamroll 90% the involved population.(4) Would you say that's fair?

If you really have the competitive drive that you claim to have, why aren't you trying to compete elsewhere, like pvp?

1) Players do not have to respect other players' time. (outside of rules/policy, aka party instances)

2) If there is nothing you "have to have" to accomplish anything, then it's not gatekeeping anything. Find another avenue of money making.

3) You, nor I, have any right to dictate what any player does with their time. If there is cheating/bad behavior, the GMs/game ToS dictates the rules.
If Billy finds joy in-game by amassing a huge pile of gil via the market, and he does it legitimately, who am I to tell him that his "fun is wrong". It's no different than the stock market.

4) Because Billy doesn't like PVP. He wants money. I don't understand why people even play PvP in this game, let alone endgame stuff. There are much better games to test skill/ability imho.

Regardless of my personal tastes, Billy, PVPers, raiders.. nobody's (legit/rule complicit) fun is wrong.

[Toutatis]

I just explained it to you. This is a game, not real life. It's normal to be competitive, but at the same time we all know how bad undercutting gets. It ends up being a competition of who has the most time to sit there at their retainers swapping the prices out repeatedly(or who can cheat and do it constantly).

Yes, it's not reportable but it's a toxic culture when it reaches a certain point.

Undercutting is not toxic by itself. I undercut if I want to and leave it there, i don’t spend my day in front of the MB. I am confident that my items will sell.

What is toxic is botting like OP does: he wants to control the market and he’s frustrated that people are not following his outrageous prices as it forces his bot to lower his intended price lol

[TheDustyOne]

I just explained it to you. This is a game, not real life. It's normal to be competitive, but at the same time we all know how bad undercutting gets. It ends up being a competition of who has the most time to sit there at their retainers swapping the prices out repeatedly(or who can cheat and do it constantly).

Yes, it's not reportable but it's a toxic culture when it reaches a certain point.

Part of the fun of many games is the competition, the drive to win. How fast can I beat this level or boss? if we use this strategy will we beat the other team? If I undercut, can I still be profitable and sell quickly? Marketboard competition is at most slightly irritating or rude, but nothing more. Undercutting isn't inherently toxic, it's just competitive.

I definitely get your point about bots, that I do find to be more toxic as they can just keep lowering it by single gil digits without any input and always put themselves at the top of the marketboard lists, but the undercutting isn't what's toxic, it's the automation of it. I wonder if it's possible to completely tank an items price (and hope no one buys it) to force the bot to undercut it, then just buy it off them for dirt cheap.