Thank you to the moderators

[ZephyrMenodora]

This is the extremely well adjusted lsat champion of corporate nut-hugging

Why did you decide to post this? What purpose does it serve for you? I'm genuinely curious.

I'll probably block you after, but I do want to know.

[Semirhage]

I think a good example is the recent Summoner discussions. (A topic near and dear to me as Summoner is presently my favorite job that I spend the most time on.)

A criticism of "Summoner has been overly simplified. It would be great if it had a tad more skill expression." would be received fine. In fact it has been with lots of support or at least respect for that position.

A criticism (and one recently removed by mods) like "People who like Summoner are braindead and bad! They can't handle other players being good! TRASH JOB!" will probably not be received as well.

And the flipside of this, one which often ends in shrieks of "Moderator! Moderator!" is the group of people who constantly, constantly state that everything is fine as-is, ankle height skill ceilings are wonderful fun, insinuate that anyone who wants more is a dirty elitist, sweaty tryhard trying to ruin the game for the quadriplegic Congolese grandmothers who all love one-button jobs, and we're expected to take this line of argument seriously or MODERATOR! Moderator! Alas alack, my opponents aren't arguing in good faith, Will No One Rid Me Of This Turbulent Priest? Help help I'm being attacked!

It leads one to suspect that "polite discussion" isn't on the menu. Genuflecting to toxic casuals first and foremost is. Criticism is only allowed within that narrow band.

Oh you can argue that current summoner needs a *little* more meat. You aren't allowed to say it's braindead and needs some real skill ceiling surgery, now you're just a dirty cheating raider who probably runs illegal malware like Gshade and you should be banned.

[Ivtrix]

I think a good example is the recent Summoner discussions. (A topic near and dear to me as Summoner is presently my favorite job that I spend the most time on.)

A criticism of "Summoner has been overly simplified. It would be great if it had a tad more skill expression." would be received fine. In fact it has been with lots of support or at least respect for that position.

A criticism (and one recently removed by mods) like "People who like Summoner are braindead and bad! They can't handle other players being good! TRASH JOB!" will probably not be received as well.

The smn braindead comments are just low hanging fruit of people piling on the bandwagon, it will always happen and it it what it is.

Writing out and explaining why the job is fundamentally in a bad state only to be met with either a specific person who is consistently confidently incorrect on how the game works or the general response which I continually had to sort thought was Well I like SMN as it currently is, there isnt a problem! This is all elitist and not fair! Its fine to have an easy class that does a lot of damage! The problem must be RDM!! When the entire point of the discussion is more based on higher level play, you cant really take into account a casual players perspective anywhere close to 100% because they simply dont understand the expectations and standards of higher end content. Hearing the classic Well, the majority of the players are casual so it doesnt matter! When the developers are still clearly invested in making content for all ranges of play by the fact that 1) every other job has a significantly higher degree of skill expression and 2) the developers continuing to commit to creating savage and ultimate content. EDIT: side note, if people really cared about an easy class that did a lot of damage 1) SAM and MCH do far more dps and 2) why are you using a parser and care about damage in content with 0 enrage checks?

Its really easy to get jaded having to answer to 16 different people that the core mechanics of SMN are fine, its just missing the little extras and how specifically that is a problem in relation to the balance across both caster and dps jobs on a whole, that all jobs in this game are fun to play inoptimally and in casual content, and that balance significantly matters in specifically high end content which is literally tuned to players playing optimally, that its easy to become really snark in response.

[ZephyrMenodora]

The smn braindead comments are just low hanging fruit of people piling on the bandwagon, it will always happen and it it what it is.

Writing out and explaining why the job is fundamentally in a bad state only to be met with either a specific person who is consistently confidently incorrect on how the game works or the general response which I continually had to sort thought was Well I like SMN as it currently is, there isnt a problem! This is all elitist and not fair! Its fine to have an easy class that does a lot of damage! The problem must be RDM!! When the entire point of the discussion is more based on higher level play, you cant really take into account a casual players perspective anywhere close to 100% because they simply dont understand the expectations and standards of higher end content. Hearing the classic Well, the majority of the players are casual so it doesnt matter! When the developers are still clearly invested in making content for all ranges of play by the fact that 1) every other job has a significantly higher degree of skill expression and 2) the developers continuing to commit to creating savage and ultimate content.

Its really easy to get jaded having to answer to 16 different people that the core mechanics of SMN are fine, its just missing the little extras and how specifically that is a problem in relation to the balance across both caster and dps jobs on a whole, that all jobs in this game are fun to play inoptimally and in casual content, and that balance significantly matters in specifically high end content which is literally tuned to players playing optimally, that its easy to become really snark in response.

I actually don't usually change my mind from the forums, but even as someone who loves current summoner, your points actually made me reconsider some aspects of it. (Especially your commentary about how it can start edging out all the other casters for performance vs. ease of use. So I really did appreciate your thoughts and contributions there.

It's easy to be blinded when you love a class and get defensive, but I loved your more expanded view of the game as a whole vs. just SMN in a microcosm. So because of your posts, I'm definitely more open now to changes.

[Zebraoracle]

The smn braindead comments are just low hanging fruit of people piling on the bandwagon, it will always happen and it it what it is.

Writing out and explaining why the job is fundamentally in a bad state only to be met with either a specific person who is consistently confidently incorrect on how the game works or the general response which I continually had to sort thought was Well I like SMN as it currently is, there isnt a problem! This is all elitist and not fair! Its fine to have an easy class that does a lot of damage! The problem must be RDM!! When the entire point of the discussion is more based on higher level play, you cant really take into account a casual players perspective anywhere close to 100% because they simply dont understand the expectations and standards of higher end content. Hearing the classic Well, the majority of the players are casual so it doesnt matter! When the developers are still clearly invested in making content for all ranges of play by the fact that 1) every other job has a significantly higher degree of skill expression and 2) the developers continuing to commit to creating savage and ultimate content.

Its really easy to get jaded having to answer to 16 different people that the core mechanics of SMN are fine, its just missing the little extras and how specifically that is a problem in relation to the balance across both caster and dps jobs on a whole, that all jobs in this game are fun to play inoptimally and in casual content, and that balance significantly matters in specifically high end content which is literally tuned to players playing optimally, that its easy to become really snark in response.

Like/updoot/whatever. And this isn't the only discussion where this type of interaction happens around here either. It happens *all the time*. Remember that thread about tanks pulling single packs vs wall to walling and how if anyone said they expect people going into expert roulette to have a basic understanding of their job mechanics (including AoE rotations), they were called elitist raiders that expect everyone to play absolutely perfectly in casual content?

[Ivtrix]

I actually don't usually change my mind from the forums, but even as someone who loves current summoner, your points actually made me reconsider some aspects of it. (Especially your commentary about how it can start edging out all the other casters for performance vs. ease of use. So I really did appreciate your thoughts and contributions there.

It's easy to be blinded when you love a class and get defensive, but I loved your more expanded view of the game as a whole vs. just SMN in a microcosm. So because of your posts, I'm definitely more open now to changes.

I dont entirely blame people for getting defensive, I think its the wrong overall attitude but a lot of people I think strongly tie in their personal fun with the job they play, and they take it as a personal attack when the job comes under heavy criticism.

Its no secret that SMN has been very divisive this entire expansion and I certainly have my own opinions about it. I played SMN in SHB and personally I think the core values of current SMN are far better, they fixed the jank pet AI and you actually have some stylistically different attacks than spamming ruin 3 in with the occasional egi assault.

Im not sure if it was you or someone else but someone had a great counterpoint to my comments which I will paraphrase into something that I agree with is a difficult issue. There is a huge gap between casual players and people who play the game more seriously (I generally refer to it as people who play this game as a hobby).

Its just really difficult to explain the little nuances of playing the game at peak design which the devs clearly take into account in the balancing of higher end content. You dont have to play GCD perfect to clear Omega final phase, but you have to play damn near close to it, including pre-prep and planning in regards to CDs and building gauge at the end of P5 so you can go into final phase with the most advantages as possible.

I've always felt that skill curves in a game are exponential, the closer you get to the top players (world prog), the more extreme the curve spikes up. A popular term I have heard and use is in relation to skill level vs rank in League of Legends; the quote goes along the lines of "the difference between Diamond 5 and Diamond 1/Masters is the same skill gap as Bronze 1 to Diamond 5". Its no different here. But when the gap is that extreme, it can be hard to break specifically down why things matter and not make it sound like im speaking a fusion of pig latin and chinese to someone who only speaks english.

[Stormpeaks]

This is the extremely well adjusted lsat champion of corporate nut-hugging

this tbh, but it's Zephyr so if you dont agree with SE he'll just pretend to block you and tell you in a post that he's blocking you because you're "trolling", he's like one of the last champions as you called it of Square Enix and he will accomplish his duty of defending this game until the end of times

[Stormpeaks]

With all due respect.

Responding to someone indirectly and continuing to read and engage in their quoted messages is counterintuitive to what you're trying to achieve by blocking someone. You may as well not have said person on your blocklist.

That's what he does though, when people post, he mentions it in multiple posts that "I dont see them I blocked them" "Oh I see X I blocked them so I cant see"

Instead of actually moving on and ignoring the person's posts, he will just talk about how X is blocked and he cant see their messages

I could literally do a search and there are so many of them

[ZephyrMenodora]

With all due respect.

Responding to someone indirectly and continuing to read and engage in their quoted messages is counterintuitive to what you're trying to achieve by blocking someone. You may as well not have said person on your blocklist.

Oh I know, but I found it amusing and only saw it as Boblawblah quoted it. In general I quickly scroll past the blocked messages from Stormpeaks and don't go looking for them. So 90% of the time I have no idea what they are saying, which is good enough for me. If the forums were set up to block quotes as well, that would be ideal.

I also didn't respond indirectly, I chose to direct my response to them directly.

[Kaurhz]

Oh I know, but I found it amusing and only saw it as Boblawblah quoted it. In general I quickly scroll past the blocked messages from Stormpeaks and don't go looking for them. So 90% of the time I have no idea what they are saying, which is good enough for me. If the forums were set up to block quotes as well, that would be ideal.

I also didn't respond indirectly, I chose to direct my response to them directly.

Someone has already proposed a solution to that conundrum - https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...from-your-view

Regardless of that though, you still took a conscious effort to respond to it.